Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

But also, the endgame is so much easier on immortal. NTT means they are much slower too, so the dates should be very different than deity w/ TT. Of course, I haven't even tried this game and sadly have no time now.

 

[Fippy]

Out of curiosity, how does Immortal+NTT Iso compare with the (not actually) "impossible" Charly map I rolled and posted a while back in that prepare to die topic?

NTT usually makes Iso easier not harder (all imo).
Really tuff deity games are much harder than this one cos as Sampsa wrote..Immortal
While it's by no means decent land overall, we have triple capital + forests + some river tiles + another clams spot close.
I have seen worse and you basically just need Pyras or some other valid strategy for maps with some good tiles, it being Imm allows working on them for 35t or so without being punished.

 

[Fippy]

Forgot to add something
When Pedro was active we had several really hard deity iso maps, with leaders like Sal + no happy and space for maybe 4 decent (stretch) cities.
You can ignore parts of this Charlie map and play as if you have just those 4-5 cities, which should be an Astro date of ~500 AD if i compare it to back then.
Ofc we need some calculations if it's actually worthwhile doing so with NTT, maybe settling every spot & lowering costs with Rathauses in some cities works out better long-term.

 

[konata_LS]

Yes, yes it can hahahaha.

This jungle island surely cannot compare to Willem's (Pacal) Gems and wines paradise . Probably also harder than the Elizabeth isolation island (the recent deity NC playthrough you recorded). Lizzy's island has some jungle tiles but at least there are some sugar resources; plus her traits and starting techs are quite good for bulbing and teching to Optics - astro.

Spoiler :

OTOH, I'm not sure if NTT makes this Charlie game harder. NTT disables the trades between the AIs as well - thus eliminating the unlimited trades between the master and the vassal (Suleiman and Capac). Most of the AIs in this map have high WFYABTA limits. Capac and Louis might beeline Compass - Astro: Capac wants to grab the free GS of Physics; Louis wants to unlock his UB. Hannibal might get early Optics as well because his UB needs Compass. With tech trading on, the human player can possibly only get very limited trades after Optics.

TBH I didn't expect this jungle island to be so brutal . I thought "immortal is easy for any player who beats regular deity games", but due to my lack of experience in isolation games, the map turns out to be harder than I imagined .

I remember playing around with this save last year, I am a bit of a fan of tricky starts and this one certainly counts!

Thanks for sharing your gameplay. Glad to see you have some fun with this jungle island. I mean - I don't mind that people jump in and try this map, but I hope they are enjoying the game, not torturing themselves. If some people are not interested in isolation, I won't force them to play.

the Oracle city has been running a priest for a long time and this is not so much for the shrine as the discount for tech stealing

Kaitzilla said the holy city is required to get -40% discount. If I understand correctly, Kaitzilla probably meant "the holy city, with or without shrine, will get you -40% bonus":

You'll find the complete article here: The complete guide to espionage
So the GProphet can be used to bulb divine right

Out of curiosity, how does Immortal+NTT Iso compare with the (not actually) "impossible" Charly map I rolled and posted a while back in that prepare to die topic?

It's hard to compare your impossible Charlie map to this one. Your Charlie map's biggest danger comes from the outside (Monty very close, deity AI starting with double settlers); this jungle island's issue is from the inside (barren land + terrible starting techs + weak traits, but no unit-spammer nearby). Both are not easy, although their difficulties are in different aspects. Of course, such a jungle island is not suitable for people who play isolation for the first time. Some nobles club games offer isolation maps, and they are better choice for people's first isolation attempt.

Your Charlie deity map is more comparable to Sampsa's Pericles map (the map that he gave to Lain, semi-isolation with Genghis). This Charlie jungle island has some similarities with an old map named "Ma(o)dness" : AH and coastal start, low commerce, too few river, potential giant AI with 10+ cities and one or two vassals (in this map it's Suleiman, in Ma(o)dness it's 25 cities Justinian who has Mechanized Infantry and 2 vassals in 1650AD).

 

[gamerbloke]

TBH I didn't expect this jungle island to be so brutal . I thought "immortal is easy for any player who beats regular deity games", but due to my lack of experience in isolation games, the map turns out to be harder than I imagined

The island itself is decent terrain long term but the start feels so slow. I remember another iso game I rolled DeGaulle on a an even bigger island that was much drier, and the start was at the north end partly tundra! But having fur and ivory plus the Charismatic happiness made a big difference.

Also the competition you meet after Optics plays a very big part, having some of the better AI's with decent land / trade route setups might as well be a bump in difficulty!

Kaitzilla said the holy city is required to get -40% discount. If I understand correctly, Kaitzilla probably meant "the holy city, with or without shrine, will get you -40% bonus":

Damn I always thought you needed the shrine! Oh well can run a few more guys without worrying about muddying the pool and do a GA I guess.

 

[drewisfat]

At the very least this should be possible to win with nukes. Impossible Charlie was not, because in the runaway hugbox was a culture loving Gandhi that I could only just barely beat with UN cheese. I don't really like playing NTT. I actually think it's simpler - just get the tech you actually want. The problem is it's unbalanced in a lot of respects. Good start vs bad start, eco leader vs aggro leader, espionage vs non-espionage. To explain that, if you have a crazy runaway let's say with 3 gold 2 gems and access to a private continent - normally they'd runaway so hard they'd have no one to tech trade with, while everyone else can trade to not fall too behind. Or Shaka with bad land can be on par with Liz on good land by conquering a couple cities and demanding techs. Diplo game? Much fewer options to mitigate the RNG of DoWs without trades. Espionage is strong enough that a committed espionage approach should make the average game easier, though that obviously doesn't hold up well if you have to sail your spies over the ocean. I'm certainly not surprised that rough maps are rougher with NTT, though IDK how that compares to DEI vs IMM. Been a long time since I played IMM or NTT, just not my cup of tea.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I am thoroughly uninspired in my attempts to break below 1000 AD for Astronomy. Tried oracle --> Monarchy again while setting the megapolis further north to delay need for iron working. In principle, cheaper that going for Pyramids. Flipped great scientist order between cities to minimize prophet odds. Uninspiring result - cottages delayed too long.

Tried settling academy in capital rather than future city. It eventually gets eclipsed.

Thought about Oracle --> COL, then this happened so screw it.

I've got one BS strategy left to try. Anyone want to guess it?

 

[Fippy]

I never liked the Oracle much for such games, Izzy's record on deity must be something like turn 28 (not kidding)
And those priest points are killer in the best city, Engineers are at least still very useful for machinery bulb (GS is still better).

 

[Fippy]

Not awesome but the future looks okay..
no Academy got 2 GE and one rushed Glib with the other bulbing Machinery.

Spoiler :

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Not awesome but the future looks okay..
no Academy got 2 GE and one rushed Glib with the other bulbing Machinery.

Spoiler :

View attachment 670662

View attachment 670663

I think there's merit to running a "specialist" economy via Representation in the absence of commerce... I think the problem is tech rate starts capping itself soon without conquest.

 

[Fippy]

True..i want to cottage all those jungle river tiles now or soon, but they will be just 3 and hamlets for a long time.
Astro and currency will help, not all cities can run scientists yet..but NTT are very long games and i am not really a fan.

Glib + NE should allow a double chemistry bulb (unless there are always random other born) for a bit "faster" steel.
Privateers are so much fun on that tech path too
Getting there really tests my patience thou.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Alright, I've gotten under 1000 AD for Astronomy, but just barely (940 - 960 AD). I think its possible to cut another 2-3 turns, but at the heavy expense of under-developing the rest of the island

Spoiler :

Presenting you: Polytheism and Settler first!

I think Meditation first is also possible, but less consistent - that's my intuition by any rate. Let's just say if we tried it, the Astro date gets shaved 1-2 more turns.

Note Prague's adjusted settling spot and my (tested) confidence in religion spread (happens within a few turns each time). Earning 1 extra commerce a turn thanks to closer cities. Going to share the pig later. 1 turn of Stonehenge while waiting for fishing.

Timing on Animal Husbandry works -- expecting growth to size 7 without Monarchy. First boat from Prague will go to Aachen's southern clam.

Mining, Priesthood, Bronze Working, The Wheel Pottery. We use Oracle on Monarchy - capital is now eligible to grow to size 8 and work cottages while waiting for Iron Working. Prague positioned to build the first and second great scientist ahead of the potential Great Prophet thanks to the overlapping Pig.

The extra cottages end up still yielding Iron Working about 5 turns late on the settle for Vienna, but not as bad as I feared.

Hinduism + Temple + Monarchy kept unit costs at around 7 as opposed to 12-15... cities feel a bit better developed as a result.

Below is the turn of Astronomy. A second trial where Writing comes before Pottery netted 1 more turn, but at the expense of more development in cities 5 and 6. 70% ratio on beakers is pretty decent sans currency.

As you can see Hannibal has discovered Adam Smith. In my second variant, with AI taking different religions, tech is slower - looks like several AI have just discovered Bureaucracy.

I would consider this change in competition the difference between a hard to win and quite winnable, but not due to any extra gameplay on my part. Hence my frustration with playing any further turns.

 

[Thrasybulos]

Question for you guys... why such an emphasis on rushing Astronomy?

In a tech trading game, I get why getting to Optics early would be of paramount importance (opens up tech trades).
But in a no tech trade game, what does getting to Astronomy super fast bring to the table?

Overseas trade routes?
That's assuming the AIs aren't running Mercantilism. And, to a lesser extent, that you can keep Open Borders with them (if you're running your own religion, that could be a tough sell. You can force it initially with a gold gift, but that decays fast).
Resource trades?
That's assuming they're not already trading all their surplusses to one another. And you usually don't have a lot of resources to offer yourself (you usually have one happy exclusive, and if you're lucky, one health semi-exclusive).
And... what else?

On the other hand, making contact early means they can start plotting on you, and I may be wrong, but I often get the impression that it makes them shift priority to Astronomy themselves.

So when I play Isolation (granted, that's just on Emperor), I often find myself delaying Astronomy.
What I want to rush and get to ASAP is Conquering Army + Astronomy. So most often Steel + Astronomy, or Military Science + Astronomy if Ragnar.
And usually that means getting to the military tech first, and getting the army ready while Astronomy is researched (unless I have enough GPs to bulb everything).
A Great Merchant for upgrades can be on the ready on a Caravel, no need for Astronomy.

I don't see the point of getting to Astronomy way before your army is ready, signalling to the world that there's a new land available, protected by paper cutouts.

Now, you're all of the same mind, so it's far more likely that I'm the one missing something... but I'm genuinely not seeing it.

 

[civac]

Both international trade routes and resource trades are a huge deal.

 

[Fippy]

Also CS makes astro bulbs impossible (paper comes up first now), and there are no other techs that can give a big boost besides astro.
Currency would be nice but maths without forests first..needed for the bulbs but delaying optics means later contact.
So we want to do all that afterwards.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I've argued for Civil Service ---> Astronomy via Liberalism in earlier posts, but agreed that since it came after 1000 AD, it's not a reliable bid for completion. Maybe if I try Meditation --> Oracle --> COL again...

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I disagree with @CarpoolKaraoke because

Spoiler :

Your strategy assumes map knowledge. We're not supposed to know that we are isolated on a resource-poor and jungle-filled island, and that there are no religious leaders, until some turns later.

What is the date for fishing, polytheism, masonry, monotheism? How consistent is it on immortal?

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

I disagree with @CarpoolKaraoke because

Spoiler :

Your strategy assumes map knowledge. We're not supposed to know that we are isolated on a resource-poor and jungle-filled island, and that there are no religious leaders, until some turns later.

What is the date for fishing, polytheism, masonry, monotheism? How consistent is it on immortal?

Spoiler :

Sure, polytheism then fishing is a gimmick. Arguably by T5 you can see there's a huge swath of jungle.

Not sure what you mean by masonry and monotheism - I do not get either.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Spoiler :

I meant get Judaism, if you want an early religion. Polytheism first assumes map knowledge. Fishing --> polytheism --> masonry --> monotheism is more realistic. I got it by 2360 BC. I am wondering if it is safer and more realistic than polytheism first.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler :

I meant get Judaism, if you want an early religion. Polytheism first assumes map knowledge. Fishing --> polytheism --> masonry --> monotheism is more realistic. I got it by 2360 BC. I am wondering if it is safer and more realistic than polytheism first.

Spoiler :

I think so. It would be a bit out of the way with the amount of other techs needed on this map. Could be fun to try settler first and got for polytheism, fishing --> monotheism anyways.