Interesting
As you are member of NQ you would have read the rule regarding shift moves.
What is your steam id??
Lol - it was a public game - my steam id is the same as my nick here.
China and GK
- Thread starter Silverfuturist
- Start date
Lol - it was a public game - my steam id is the same as my nick here.
Ok but i quoted a part where you say they beat artys and cavs...against cities i can understand that the double shooting is pretty good against cities lower than 40but not much. Over that number an oligarchy city with a good ranged unit can easily kill a CKN per turn.
It was actually me that made the initial claim / used them to easily overpower cavalry / artillery. I agree, the person I used it against wasn't as prepared as he should have been, but that's because he was spamming tech to get Artillery ASAP instead of taking a slightly slower approach and having more military.
Another thing the double shot gives you that I forgot to mention above, is that you get more xp and gg points since you attack _twice_ without taking damage. This can lead to very handy insta-heals or combat promos. By the time I squared off in the above game, all of the CKNs had cover, and a few of them had got up to move & heal.
You can mass produce them like crazy to make up for any lost in battle (120 prod vs 420 for art, 260 calv - these numbers may be off, as I don't have access to civ right now). Combined with the extra cash you get from the chinese UB, you can have a pretty awesome army. My capital was producing one CKN a turn with double upgrades and the other cities were producing one un-upgraded CKN every few turns leading to about 3 new CKN a turn. So, based on that, along with the extra GGs, I think a hoard would still be a problem for 7-8 arts / 4 horses (if you had a big enough buffer to get tech early enough / get enough gold to upgrade). I wish I could remember what turn this happened, but I was surprised to see the Maya with artillery.
Sounds at least a little bit plausible right? Now, replace all that with XBows - no chance right? That just shows you how OP they are.
There should be an easier way to test these kind of scenarios, as otherwise we'll just go back and forth with theoretical arguments all day
I know you are a good player, and I've bet you a couple of times now, so I hope you feel the same way 
So my suggestion would be for you to give the CKN rush a try using your Trad 4 opening, beelining to Chu's after getting NC. I don't think it can be stopped by any civ that doesn't have a buffer between you and them (e.g. ocean or another civ or two). It's not luck based like the Spainish Wonder Settler or the Attila Upgraded Battering Ram.I'd put it in the same bucket as the Aztec CS Bully or the Austria Deity CS conversion - it needs a balancing somehow.
You better reach Industrialization first when playing China vs any other ind. techs if you want to pursue your domination when facing good techers. Gatling guns shooting twice are awesome
Or if you feel safe you can beeline Public Schools and rush them in your biggest cities and run faster through the tech tree.
This civ is just too good in right conditions.
Or if you feel safe you can beeline Public Schools and rush them in your biggest cities and run faster through the tech tree.
This civ is just too good in right conditions.
dasnowflake
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2012
- Messages
- 29
someone please post a good build to use for a China "wide" ICS style empire?
i typically play 1v1's on small maps
usually i use the mayans and they are quite good for "wide", but China seems ok too, maybe like
-> mass expand asap
-> rush super libraries in all cities, good gold
-> chokonu rushhh, build some in advance to upgrade
i typically play 1v1's on small maps
usually i use the mayans and they are quite good for "wide", but China seems ok too, maybe like
-> mass expand asap
-> rush super libraries in all cities, good gold
-> chokonu rushhh, build some in advance to upgrade
I normally go tall with China, and just puppet, so no real experience with ICS.
Happiness will be a problem, but if you get a desert start religion should help you out there. I think the biggest problem would be getting to Cho's fast enough. NC helps a tall opening get there quickly, but if you are going wide, that's more difficult. Perhaps if you take the trade route science boost pantheon? Tab has a good post on ICS for Maya / Arabia - I think with a few minor tweaks it could be used for a chu rush.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=473168
Tab - what do you use to record your videos?
Check this thread. CamStudios And Xvid are free and i use DaveMcW's way to record a game using these softwares. Then i edit my videos with Movie Maker.
Silverfuturist
King
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 684
What turn are you getting there... for wide I get to machinery around turn 82. I never build an early NC in MP, the hammer cost of an early NC is like 4 extra cities out. With my many cities I keep up with science unless it is vs a crazy civ like Mayas.
Also if you go tall how many units can you have ready for upgrade... for going wide I can sneak an archer build into each new city, upgrade archer to comp bow and later chukonu. Going wide with China and building paper makers means plenty of upgrade gold, if you go tall China u have less paper makers to make money with.
If China goes tall and tries to rush me with my city spam, I might defend. As great as Chukonus are, if I have triple their production, that is a lot of units I can make compared to them.
dasnowflake
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2012
- Messages
- 29
please post a basic build order / outline, so I can practice, i usually play 1v1 on smaller maps..
-how many cities at turn 83?
-how many chos?
-what unhappiness level is acceptable while wide-ing?
Slyrp decided to take China. I spawned between Mayans and China(great...). Mayans settled a city toward my capital. I settled right below him. I CB rushed that guy and got a 4th city. everything was ok after that i made peace with Maya(too much strength to take it with CBs already
). Then Slyrp DoWed me.I'm Siam, so i try to beeline Chivalry...well i was 14 turns away from that tech when some CKNs appeared...
and we are only at turn 75. Damn 4 cities Trad. approach 
Had only 2 iron tile and my CBs were crushed by his army. It was a matter of time before he could take my capital.
Chivalry is way too far away to make it in time. Steel should be ok but you need at least 6 iron. And Slyrp told me that getting Crossbowmen do a poor job against China.
So...is starting near China and letting them 5-6 CKNs(probably even more) and some other units is an auto-loss? Best should be rush that guy first before Mayans maybe? Does my starting position was winnable? Maybe...i don't know why i have let Slyrp alone. I shouldn't next time
Well it was a public game so it wasn't comparable with potential associations and better and cooperative play.
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Typically early to mid 70s. NC is crucial when going tall. I normally have around 6 or 7 comps ready to upgrade and 500-900 gp by around then as well. I sometimes have to spend a little to ally a civ with horses (like I did tonight) so I can take cities from a distance when I don't have any horses on my land.
I ended up in a FFA and next to Tabarnak (Siam) tonight I've attached a screenshot here. I think I had them around 77ish this game (was a little slow since I went with 4 cities - could be faster)
Spoiler :
The advantage of going tall over wide, is long term, it's better (I find that ICS in G&K falls behind from public schools / factories on).
Tradition is just not doing well in a military based game ...
It might be best in pure build game, espacially if u go very fast into rationalism - but i dont see it being competetive anymore once u have to go military.
The settlers cost so many shields and even more important u loose 2 GA, the lib one and the peity one which u most time wont get to without reduced culture costs.
Those 2 GAs can mean MANY more upgraded units.
So u loose shileds by more settler costs, u got less production, and loose 2 GAs and possibly a general to a liberty player - very hard to make up military wise - basiclly u d need gw with good opponents close
well that got nothing to do with china, but also strikes back ino the wide vs tall thing:
tall and tradition = good if peace untill indu era
otherwise liberty and semiwide is just superior espacially with a military civ like china
It might be best in pure build game, espacially if u go very fast into rationalism - but i dont see it being competetive anymore once u have to go military.
The settlers cost so many shields and even more important u loose 2 GA, the lib one and the peity one which u most time wont get to without reduced culture costs.
Those 2 GAs can mean MANY more upgraded units.
So u loose shileds by more settler costs, u got less production, and loose 2 GAs and possibly a general to a liberty player - very hard to make up military wise - basiclly u d need gw with good opponents close
well that got nothing to do with china, but also strikes back ino the wide vs tall thing:
tall and tradition = good if peace untill indu era
otherwise liberty and semiwide is just superior espacially with a military civ like china
Silverfuturist
King
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- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 684
Typically early to mid 70s. NC is crucial when going tall. I normally have around 6 or 7 comps ready to upgrade and 500-900 gp by around then as well. I sometimes have to spend a little to ally a civ with horses (like I did tonight) so I can take cities from a distance when I don't have any horses on my land.
I ended up in a FFA and next to Tabarnak (Siam) tonight I've attached a screenshot here. I think I had them around 77ish this game (was a little slow since I went with 4 cities - could be faster)
Spoiler :
The advantage of going tall over wide, is long term, it's better (I find that ICS in G&K falls behind from public schools / factories on).
Thanks for the screenshot. You got them on turn 77ish, but what turn was it that they engaged the opponent? How did Tabernak deal with those deadly chukonus?
Unfortunately, I made the silly mistake of killing his scout on turn 70 or so, so he knew the attack was coming. At least it drew his troops out I guess. We had been trading a few blows, but I had a _very_ useful defensive position - hill south east of guangzhou and one to the north west, surrounded by jungle. Perfect for sniping
I had around 5 Comps sitting in or around Guangzhou. So I guess turn 78? Tab had a huge army from beating up the Maya, as well as a GG. It was assorted (in his typical style), but nothing was very effective. NB this screenshot is from a few turns after the attack hence all the units being fully healed. So it took about 7 turns, which was a little bit slow. I think I lost one cho.
Unfortunately, I made the silly mistake of killing his scout on turn 70 or so, so he knew the attack was coming. At least it drew his troops out I guess. We had been trading a few blows, but I had a _very_ useful defensive position - hill south east of guangzhou and one to the north west, surrounded by jungle. Perfect for sniping
Tab had a huge army from beating up the Maya, as well as a GG. It was assorted (in his typical style), but nothing was very effective. NB this screenshot is from a few turns after the attack hence all the units being fully healed. So it took about 7 turns, which was a little bit slow. I think I lost one cho.
Hey SilverFuturist
I figured I would put together a video demonstrating my build / how to get chos going pretty early on. The first part concentrates on the initial build - it gets it's inspiration from Tab's 4 city traditional approach.
You can find it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQvu28aPAtg.
Let me know what you think / any tips on how to improve the initial opening. I got lucky with a hut / city states, but that made up for some quesitionable land for my 3rd city.
I'll also post a follow up video showing how they still remain competitive till quite late in the game, and then show what happens when you upgrade them in to Machine Guns
I think it somewhat depends on the land you are given. We played a skirmish team game last night, and the dominant land was plains. With plains, you can't get enough growth for Tradition to work, so Liberty is definitely the better option. However, with Tiny Island / Arch / Large Island games, I find that Traditional is a much better approach rather than lots of small cities with little to no production.
Slyrp decided to take China. I spawned between Mayans and China(great...). Mayans settled a city toward my capital. I settled right below him. I CB rushed that guy and got a 4th city. everything was ok after that i made peace with Maya(too much strength to take it with CBs already
I'm Siam, so i try to beeline Chivalry...well i was 14 turns away from that tech when some CKNs appeared...
Had only 2 iron tile and my CBs were crushed by his army. It was a matter of time before he could take my capital.
Chivalry is way too far away to make it in time. Steel should be ok but you need at least 6 iron. And Slyrp told me that getting Crossbowmen do a poor job against China.
So...is starting near China and letting them 5-6 CKNs(probably even more) and some other units is an auto-loss? Best should be rush that guy first before Mayans maybe? Does my starting position was winnable? Maybe...i don't know why i have let Slyrp alone. I shouldn't next time
Well it was a public game so it wasn't comparable with potential associations and better and cooperative play.
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
So I played in a 3v3 game last night, and one of my team mates, Julius8282, drew China, so I thought we would be set! We pumped out a crap load of Comp bows, and upgraded about 20 or so chos as soon as we got machinery. They were going along perfectly until Arabia (BabaYetu) got chivalry and started with the Camel Archers. If your opponent has good twitch, CAs annihilate Chos, especially when your opponents have 28 of them
I am not sure it would work so well in FFA though, as you wouldn't be able to get enough horses unless you were lucky.So far, it seems to be the only way to counter Chos is with other UUs (Camel Archers or Longbows).
Any tips on taking on a twitchy Camel Archer player? Knights? Spears? I might do my next video as Arabia.
Silverfuturist
King
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- Dec 16, 2010
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- 684
Cool - have falled behind on my civ reading.
Silverfuturist
King
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2010
- Messages
- 684
So I played in a 3v3 game last night, and one of my team mates, Julius8282, drew China, so I thought we would be set! We pumped out a crap load of Comp bows, and upgraded about 20 or so chos as soon as we got machinery. They were going along perfectly until Arabia (BabaYetu) got chivalry and started with the Camel Archers. If your opponent has good twitch, CAs annihilate Chos, especially when your opponents have 28 of them
So far, it seems to be the only way to counter Chos is with other UUs (Camel Archers or Longbows).
Any tips on taking on a twitchy Camel Archer player? Knights? Spears? I might do my next video as Arabia.
Yes, if you are playing vs Arabia and they can go first most of the time in a production/rush situation, you are probably dead unless you can jump to a higher era or you have cities in a good defensive position (rivers they can't cross.) I would suggest the tradition opener (expand borders) so they cannot build roads near your cities and use camels on those roads.
Diendiadre
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2010
- Messages
- 32
In the multiplayer group that I played in, China was indeed feared. We played G&K with almost all dlcs. However China was only seen as very good, when they had Chokonus, but not so good, when they didn't. The same could therefore be said about a lot of civilizations. We usually say that being neighbour with the huns, is an early death, since nothing can deal with those early siege units.
However, we also see civilizations such as Egypt as imbalanced because of its culture potential, England, because of the longbow, Rome, because of the legions and korea because they have the science lead through the entire game. There are lot's of other potential problems too. The spanish civilization if they find many wonders in the start of the game, especially if one of them is eldorado, is almost unstoppable.
The Aztecs earliest rush is hard to counter and easily kills you.
The Celts will win anything religous, since you can't stop them from that if they have a few forests. Religion is a big deal in the renaissance, especially if someone has taken all the happiness buildings for their religion.
Finally France is a very common winner in our games, because of the ancient regime. This will give France an edge in early expansion and that edge will never go away. Unless France is killed by ChokoNus or Legions. Or worse, the Huns...
However, we also see civilizations such as Egypt as imbalanced because of its culture potential, England, because of the longbow, Rome, because of the legions and korea because they have the science lead through the entire game. There are lot's of other potential problems too. The spanish civilization if they find many wonders in the start of the game, especially if one of them is eldorado, is almost unstoppable.
The Aztecs earliest rush is hard to counter and easily kills you.
The Celts will win anything religous, since you can't stop them from that if they have a few forests. Religion is a big deal in the renaissance, especially if someone has taken all the happiness buildings for their religion.
Finally France is a very common winner in our games, because of the ancient regime. This will give France an edge in early expansion and that edge will never go away. Unless France is killed by ChokoNus or Legions. Or worse, the Huns...
