China in Mongolia?

[bob bobato]

I have an old map, from a book published in the 1950's-I think, thats what it says on copyright, 1945 1st printing, 1966 last. It shows Asia, just that it doesn't make sense. It includes French Indochina, Malay States, Afghanistan, 1 Korea , and Pakistan, India, Bhutan, & Nepal as one, nameless country (Im assuming part of Britain). Thats not the problem. The problem is, it shows Mongolia as being part of China and Manchuria as its own country. Is this a typo?

 

[Aramazd]

It's probably from the Chinese Civil War. IIRC, Manchuria was a Chinese Communist stronghold. About Mongolia, I'm not sure.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Even today, part of Mongolia (Inner Mongolia) is a part of China. Outer Mongolia became 'independent' (became a Soviet satellite actually) in the mid 20s; under Soviet pressure. China under the KMT (nominally - it was 1925 or so and they had barely started on their Northern Expedition) was very weak at that time.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I have an old map, from a book published in the 1950's-I think, thats what it says on copyright, 1945 1st printing, 1966 last. It shows Asia, just that it doesn't make sense. It includes French Indochina, Malay States, Afghanistan, 1 Korea , and Pakistan, India, Bhutan, & Nepal as one, nameless country (Im assuming part of Britain). Thats not the problem. The problem is, it shows Mongolia as being part of China and Manchuria as its own country. Is this a typo?

It sounds like it might be from the Thirties. The Subcontinent was all British India (they got independence in 1947, so it can't be in from the 50s), and Manchuria was the Japanesepuppet state of Manchukuo, technically independent, after the Japanese invasion in 1931. So if Manchukuo is on the map, then it was printed between 1931 and 1945, when the Japanese occupation ended, courtesy of Ivan.

As for Mongolia: Outer Mongolia became independent in 1911, and would have been closely aligned with the Soviet Union during the Thirties, the Reds even fought a war against China in 1939 on their behalf. However, it was an independent country, roughly the size of present-day Mongolia. If it doesn't show up on the map you have, I don't know what to say.

 

[deo]

Can you post that map? A scan for example...

 

[Bugfatty300]

Thats not the problem. The problem is, it shows Mongolia as being part of China and Manchuria as its own country. Is this a typo?

If it shows Mongolia as part of China and Korea as its own country, then the map is much, much older that the 1930s or 1940s. Try around 1900s.

Manchuria was a heavily disputed region around the early 20th century so this could be why is separated.

Isn't there a caption somewhere for the map?

 

[sydhe]

Here are some clues:
(1) Japan annexed Korea in 1910 and occupied it until 1945.
(2) Germany had a lease over part of the Shandong peninsula from 1897 to 1918. That's the peninsula on the opposite side of Bohai Bay from Korea.
(3) Russia had a zone of influence in Manchuria in the period prior to the Russo-Japanese war, and Japan from 1906 until the 1930s, when they turned it into a puppet state. Mukden and Port Arthur are in Manchuria, and they were two of the four big battles of the Russo-Japanese War. (The population of that area is mostly Han now; that happened in the late 19th century.)
(4) Who owns Port Arthur? Japan took it over in 1905 and held it until 1945. Russia leased it from 1897 until 1905. Japan held it briefly in 1894-5.

 

[The Yankee]

Mongolia was fully within Qing China. If Manchuria was independent, then it'd probably have to be after Japan set up Manchukuo. Unless it's shown to be disputed, then it'd be another matter.

 

[challenger]

The Mongolia thing might well simply be a mistake. I remember a map in a children's encyclopaedia from 1991 which showed China, but incorporating Mongolia. Hate to say it, but in the age we're talking about here, Westerners did not care so much about Asia as to pass exclusively error-free information.

 

[Tee Kay]

I have an old map, from a book published in the 1950's-I think, thats what it says on copyright, 1945 1st printing, 1966 last. It shows Asia, just that it doesn't make sense. It includes French Indochina, Malay States, Afghanistan, 1 Korea , and Pakistan, India, Bhutan, & Nepal as one, nameless country (Im assuming part of Britain). Thats not the problem. The problem is, it shows Mongolia as being part of China and Manchuria as its own country. Is this a typo?

If it's from 1945 then it's possible, as:

- Manchuria as a country (Manzhouguo) remained until August 1945 when it was disbanded after Japan's defeat. Afterwards it serve as a base for the CCP. Therefore Manchuria is de facto independent of China until 1949.
- The fate of Korea was not yet finalised as of 1945, and the establishment of the north-south regimes did not come until 1948, so until then it might be shown as one country.
- As for Mongolia, it became de facto independent as of 1911 iirc. Thing is, the Republic of China never accepted this and today still claims it as part of China. The map maker might be reflecting the Guomindang party line.

Anyway I have to say the map maker was pretty dodgy.

 

[bob bobato]

I just noticed the caption. it says it shows China 'today', and the area under the control of the Communists (China doesn't include Taiwan-here called Formosa-on the map). But Im not sure of the year. It mentions WW2 as if it just ended, implies Truman is still president of the US, and has a picture from 1958. On the copyright page, it mentions dates from 1945 to 1966, so I think it was first published in 1945, but was updated every so often,in different places.

 

[deo]

Some clues perhaps:

The Mongolian People's Republic was aligned closely with the Soviet Union. During the 1920s and 1930s, several high-ranking politicians who demanded a more independent course, like Dogsomyn Bodoo or Khorloogiin Dandzan, fell victim to violent power struggles and were killed. In 1928, Khorloogiin Choibalsan rose to power. Under his administration, forced collectivisation of livestock was instituted, and the destruction of Buddhist monasteries and stalinist purges beginning 1937 left more than 30,000 people dead.

During the Soviet-Japanese Border War of 1939, the USSR defended Mongolia against Japan. Mongolian forces also took part in the Soviet offensive against Japanese forces in Inner Mongolia in August 1945 (see Operation August Storm). The (Soviet) threat of Mongolian forces seizing parts of Inner Mongolia induced the Republic of China to recognize Outer Mongolia's independence, provided that a referendum was held. The referendum took place on October 20, 1945, with (according to official numbers) 100% of the electorate voting for independence. After the establishment of the People's Republic of China, both countries re-recognized each other on October 6, 1949.

After Choibalsan died in Moscow on January 26, 1952, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal took power. In 1956 and again in 1962, Choibalsan's personality cult was condemned. Mongolia continued to align itself closely with the Soviet Union, especially after the Sino-Soviet split of the late 1950s. While Tsedenbal was visiting Moscow in August 1984, his severe illness prompted the parliament to announce his retirement and replace him with Jambyn Batmönkh.