China - Qin Shi Huang Thread

[local_hero]

I'm glad the Great Wall doesn't have any movement penalty to traverse. It was a pain warring against someone with it in civ 5 before artillery. But then you had to build the wonder for the bonus. To reliably have this bonus every playthrough sounds very strong and frustrating. On the other hand, if you man the wall properly you'll probably be quite unassailable.

The Eureka bonus is still difficult to assess since we only know of a few requirements. I can imagine several situations where I wouldn't want to build a number of units of one type for a research credit. Probably a strong and flexible bonus but not one to be worried about balance wise.

Edit: Overall interesting. Up to this point England is the only reveal that disappoints me. Great job.

 

[apocalypse105]

the great wall is bassicly a Mughal Fort in civ 5 but as a improvement it provides defence in the early game and in the late game tourisme.

So if you want to go culture victory building it next to every city is verry good because it can give you lots of tourisme

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

the great wall is bassicly a Mughal Fort in civ 5 but as a improvement it provides defence in the early game and in the late game tourisme.

So if you want to go culture victory building it next to every city is verry good because it can give you lots of tourisme

I'm thinking it may be a good idea to hold off on it during the early game when you want growth from farms and wait until it makes culture and tourism to begin building it.

 

[Joketa]

It's kind of stupid that you can get culture and tourism from building it in the late game. Hey, look at these ancient walls we built last year. Maybe building it should obsolete.

 

[AriochIV]

Maybe building it should obsolete.

Probably does.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It would be the first time that there is a deadline for building an improvement. A better solution would be a timer that says the Great Wall parts will produce Culture and Tourism X turns after they are built.

 

[smartcanuck1988]

It would be the first time that there is a deadline for building an improvement. A better solution would be a timer that says the Great Wall parts will produce Culture and Tourism X turns after they are built.

I don't think it would make sense that the same great wall would still be built in 1900 AD, still using the same material and architecture.

Unless you can still build it but depending on era it would change in bonuses (and appearance), but that would get too complicated I think.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I don't think it would make sense that the same great wall would still be built in 1900 AD, still using the same material and architecture.

Unless you can still build it but depending on era it would change in bonuses (and appearance), but that would get too complicated I think.

Game > historical logic

 

[King Rad]

One other alternative would be to do like the cultural landmarks in CiV. The older the wall, the more culture it produces. So if built in ancient era, provides a lot of culture, but if built in Renaissance, not so much.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

One other alternative would be to do like the cultural landmarks in CiV. The older the wall, the more culture it produces. So if built in ancient era, provides a lot of culture, but if built in Renaissance, not so much.

I was thinking about this too, but considering it will gives already gold (depending on the number of walls it is connected to) and later also tourism and culture, it will probably be overpowered even if one of these yields scale with era. So instead of scaling maybe the additional culture and/or tourism should be applied if the wall is old enough.

 

[Stringer1313]

Will they have to write an entirely new AI script so the AI knows how to build the Great Wall properly?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Will they have to write an entirely new AI script so the AI knows how to build the Great Wall properly?

Supposedly everything in Civ 6 is redone from the ground up, so yes. Although if they were going to crib some code from Civ V for it, the Polynesian Moai would be a good starting point.

 

[Zaarin]

Perhaps Teutonic Knights.

Frederick vs. Saladin, go!

All Saladin has to do is lure them across a river.

 

[cakes]

the vid won't work for me now but i'm pretty sure there was a notable emphasis put on the wall's defensive bonus being mainly for the early game, implying that the bonus would be made obsolete at some point

 

[ImperialChaos]

Knew it was China. I'm not 100% on how Civ VI works, but doesn't this civ sound OP?

 

[Amrunril]

I agree with you that 50% to 75% is too much. I would predict that it is 50% to 60%, or 40% to 50% (since most of the eureka we saw were based on china gameplay).

We don't know how many eurekas we'll be able to get in each game. I.e. if you normally get eureka for every tech, China would get +50% science, but if only 10% of techs will have eurekas, that's only +5% - barely noticeable. I expect something in between, so the bonus looks quite reasonable.

Increasing the Eureka bonus from 50% to 75% would be a 50% numerical increase, but it would be a 100% increase to your effective research rate for the techs in question (instead of paying 50% of the normal science cost, you'd only have to pay 25%). Those numbers would be absolutely absurd, even if they only applied to a fraction of techs.

 

[Sagax]

Knew it was China. I'm not 100% on how Civ VI works, but doesn't this civ sound OP?

We'll need to look into numbers. A 5% Eureka bonus is meh, while 20% already sounds alarming.

 

[OnceAKing]

I'm glad the Great Wall doesn't have any movement penalty to traverse. It was a pain warring against someone with it in civ 5 before artillery. But then you had to build the wonder for the bonus. To reliably have this bonus every playthrough sounds very strong and frustrating. On the other hand, if you man the wall properly you'll probably be quite unassailable.

The Eureka bonus is still difficult to assess since we only know of a few requirements. I can imagine several situations where I wouldn't want to build a number of units of one type for a research credit. Probably a strong and flexible bonus but not one to be worried about balance wise.

Edit: Overall interesting. Up to this point England is the only reveal that disappoints me. Great job.

I don't get this arguement. Even if we got a substantial bonus for standing a unit on a wall. By definition we'd be spreading our army thin (literally) trying to man the tiles of the wall.

The easy counter to that would be to concentrate force one unit or 2 and spill the rest of the military in and flank the remainING army.

It actually forces us to employ bad tactics like taking 5 units and lining them horizontally rather than in a formation that allows for easy reinforcement. It also allows us to be easily flanked once one side is breached, which is no harder than concentrating fire on one unit.


The whole purpose of a wall is to force choke points which dictate the battleground for the defender. In those choke points you could place your army, knowing they can't flank or surprise you.

Also the purpose is being able to cut down on the size of an army to protect a larger territory.

Why invest in more builders if you have to also invest in a bigger army to even make it worthwhile?

 

[smartcanuck1988]

Game > historical logic

Yes but when the game is based on historical logic itself, a much more elegant solution in my mind is one that helps gameplay AND be fitting historically. Just like how in Civ5 GW obsoletes with Dynamite. Not 100% perfect, but it's simple and elegant that combines something logical and something necessary for gameplay balance. Now that it's an improvement, I think the deadline to build it is a better approach in my opinion.


On an unrelated point, I wonder if moving along the wall is like moving on a road so you don't have to have garrison units everywhere?

 

[m15a]

I'm not sure lining up 5 units in a row would be necessary to take advantage of the wall. If you have a 5-tile border, you could just have 2 units on the wall with a space in between to force enemy units to end their turn on or next to the wall, right? Then you attack. It'd be good if friendly units on the wall also got an attack bonus in addition to defense, but slowing the units automatically wouldn't be necessary.

Edit: that scenario would make the additional Great Wall tiles not worth building, though. And having individual 1-tile sections of Great Wall as optimal does seem silly.