Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Yeosol, Apr 10, 2009.
It's still a crime. War Chariots are the ducks nuts.
Agri + Mining is only slightly better (open Animal Husbandry) than Fishing + Mining. Those 2 are the best starting tech combos imo. Those civs starting with Mysticism get monuments/Stonehenge early and you can found a religion (rarely a great move), but really get off to a slow start much of the time. Prime examples are Justinian and Charlemagne.
Great post! Many people don't realize Stalin is the only Agg leader who starts with Mining. That rates him much higher in my book than otherwise.
You forgot 2 great synergies though..
Egypt - Agri + Wheel means one tech (AH) away from War Chariots!!
Also Rome - start with Mining and 2 techs (BW and IW) away from Praetorians!!
In my opinion, those two are the single best starting techs since they often allow one to improve multiple tiles and are prerequisites for important early techs... but there is nothing special about starting with both. As long as I have one of them, I'm happy.
Fishing is occasionally useless but workboat first is often the best opening (especially with a 3-hammer-tile). I like Mining/Fishing, possibly more so than Mining/Agriculture: Mining alone is enough to get smooth starts on the majority of maps, Fishing allows a considerable head start when coastal. Fishing/Mysticism can often allow one an almost guaranteed religion... but it's not really a combination I'd like to pick blindly (I play random maps).
The Wheel is expensive and a prerequisite to Pottery, also ensuring that workers will never be idle. Since it doesn't do anything for tile yields, it's great when coupled with Mining/Agriculture but pretty horrible otherwise (can be good with Fishing, but that combination can also suck royally).
Agriculture/The Wheel is my favourite overall combination.
Mysticism also requires a useful economy tech to be useful, otherwise going for an early religion takes too great a sacrifice.
Hunting is something I can do without. No worker stealing, my scouts seem to die far more often than my warriors, messes with my ability to build warriors for garrison duty until the medieval age. Also, cheap.
I find fishing useless. It's cheap and if I must research it I can do so quickly. When not playing a forum game I play predominantly pangea. I don't use Rome or Inca's because they drastically change any game due to UU abuse.
China as a whole blow pretty hard imo so that leaves Wheel/Agr as the best choice. HoF games with Qin are far from reality so don't count in my book - overall I still feel they are "average" at best. I hate hunting for so many reasons, but, it does have a good thing - Agr or AH and food is always 1 tech away. I don't care if I have Mining and an Imp civilization, I am still going to grow my capital then spam/chop quick settlers - not straight out chop because in the long run it slows you down.
Yes, Mysticism and the Charismatic trait have nice synergy, but Mysticism and Hunting is the worst trait combination in my opinion (HRE and Aztec have it too). You're basically guaranteed to get off to a slow start because you have to research every worker tech for yourself.
An opening scout means
1) No popping Barb warriors from huts.
2) faster exploration.
3) Beating the AI in racing to huts.
They also get +100% against animals, the same as a non-sgressive warrior.
Scouts also upgrade to explorers, and a fleet with two explorers in two caravels will explore a continent in no time, while it picks up great bonuses from goody huts and doesn't wory about the barbarians.
@ madscientist: Yes, and those are reasons enough that I *sometimes* find Hunting useful enough that I don't wish I could simply forget how to stick pointy things into furry things and get my starting warrior back.
I was thinking less of animals (scouts can often run away or withdraw to defensive terrain) than barbarians... a starting warrior at least has a chance to keep some archers out of my hair if I play my cards right.
I play with huts disabled so it becomes about food vs scout life vs will I be running HR or not argument.
I always struggle with these starting techs, the Wheel + Mysticism.
I can't remember I've won a BTS game with Saladin or Justinian. (Maybe there's another civ with these starting techs.)
Using said resource, I made a little reference for future use:
Format: Tech 1, Tech 2: Civs
Agriculture, Fishing: America, Dutch, Natives
Agriculture, Hunting: Persia, Zulu
Agriculture, Mining: China
Agriculture, Mysticism: Inca
Agriculture, The Wheel: Babylonia, Egypt, France, Ottomans, Sumer
Fishing, Hunting: Greece, Vikings
Fishing, Mining: Carthage, England, Portugal, Rome
Fishing, Mysticism: Spain
Fishing, The Wheel: Japan
Hunting, Mining: Ethiopia, Germany, Khmer, Russia
Hunting, Mysticism: Aztecs, Celts, HRE
Hunting, The Wheel: Mongolia
Mining, Mysticism: India, Korea, Maya
Mining, The Wheel: Mali
Mysticism, The Wheel: Arabs, Byzantines
I knew some tech combos were used more often then others, but I had no idea there was such an imbalance. Is this up-to-date for the most recent patch? Or did I make a mistake somewhere?
Nice work Anti. Yea I didn't realize they were as imbalanced as well. Seems there are a lot of civs that are the only ones with their starting techs.
I agree there are a couple other really solid opening tech combos. That Persia one looks interesting.
Also Fishing is awesome on coastal starts. I guess the problem I have with japan is The Wheel doesn't give you much to work with for an inland start.
I have to say I'm surprised with the lack of love for China. Alright I should admit I've never played Mao, and generally am not a fan of Protective. However I always seems to have great games with Qin. The China UU is really amazing. Just build them in mass. Nothing can really stand up to so much collateral damage.
Plus with BAT mod thier units look so BA.
As far as i'm concerned you either start with some combination of wheel/agr/mining, or you don't. The other 3 techs are irrelivant to the point where you may as well be starting a tech down.
And I'm sorry to burst the bubble about china, but the starting techs are the *only* thing it has going. The UU below average at best, and the UB is just terrible. Even for a cultural victory, it's worse than having a leader with philosophical. It's a real shame china got stuck with 2 leaders with protective/+mediocre trait. Who builds archers anyway.
Yea ok their UB is crap. (although it does sound good when you first see it. If only culture was more important after the early game). But how can you say the UU is below average? I'd say in the top 50% at least. Although I agree there is some disparity in UU's, in that most make marginal differences while a few can almost win you the game.
How many UU's would you say are better? I'd say about 10.
Actually, I build alot!
Protective is the weakest trait, but it still has alot to offer. Especially if you run natiohood and extensively draft.
Qin is pretyt powerful for a culture victory as he can wonderspam in three cities with the Industrious trait and has a UB that a UB that leverages it. Similar to Agustus and the Forum for an industrious leader.
Mao can expand a little faster being EXP and can defend the territory, but he is one of the weaker leaders.
Perhaps it's my play style but I always found the Chinese UU to be awesome on paper but I just never get arround to using it. Perhaps because I think both Chinese leaders are built for a peaceful game and I usually have conquered the lands I need before Chu-nuks (or whatever they are called).
I honestly don't find protective all that useful for drafting riflemen. Between attacking musketmen with riflemen with a financial or philosophical leader and fighting drill 1, CG 1 riflemen vs other riflemen I would rather take the tech advantage. When you add in the fact that industrial era warfare is basically a race for Steel and cannons, it favors the fast teching leaders even more.
If your running theocracy with a barracks or a GG with a BArracks your drafting 3 CG I, Drill I, Pinch rifles every turn.
Honorable mention to Churchhill's redcoats and any dafted gunpowder Japanese soldier.
You can build barracks, get great generals and run nationalism and/or theocracy with non-protective leaders too, though. I would rather have 3 combat II infantry with Hannibal or Lincoln than 3 CG I, Drill I, Pinch rifles with Qin or Mao.
Starting with "Agriculture and Fishing" are horrible unless you are creative.
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