Chinas Starting Techs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Yeosol, Apr 10, 2009.

  1. Molybdeus

    Molybdeus Prince

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    Researching animal husbandry and archery first means you have to delay mining, bronze working and pottery too long. Axemen and spearmen are better vs barbarians than archers anyway (except for Skirmishers, of course) since they can defend your tiles from being pillaged.
     
  2. Yeosol

    Yeosol monarch

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    CKN start with +2 first strikes. plus drill 1. (Interestingly this is the same as the samurai). So that's 2-3FS. You can usually get two promos out the gait so that's drill2+3, now you're at 3-6FS. Yea they don't get CR but those FS are killer. Now I'm not exactly sure how their collateral damage works, but would this mean they get another 3-6 rounds of collateral damage? I do find after I attack with 2-3 of these guys everything else in the city is 95% kill chance or up.
    Not to mention Drill4 brings them to 5-8FS. That's ridicules.
     
  3. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    They are easily one of the finest UUs
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    But this also lets me get a lot of improvements for food. Also, I like Chariots much better than axes and spears for barb defense because I can move them 2 spots. Furthermore, horses are more common than copper.
     
  5. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    Chariots are more fragile than axes and vulenerable to spears and the don't get defensive bonuses, so axes and/or archers are the best to defend cities.
     
  6. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I have played many deity games ... and I have only seen ONE barbarian spear. That was in the Gilgamesh game USun posted because there was a ton of empty space. Oh wait, I might have seen 1 barbarian spear on an immortal raging barbs with extra land. ;)

    Also, I can't tell you how many times I've played on deity, started out Mining - BW, and wishing that I hadn't, because there was no bronze and I had to research Hunting - Archery (which is usually too late for archery).

    And the 2-move factor of chariots lets me have 1 unit to defend 2 cities simultaneously. :goodjob: Very useful if you have 1 city which will never grow beyond size 3, but is incredibly useful (blocking, grabs 2 gold resources, etc.).
     
  7. InFlux5

    InFlux5 King

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    Gotta throw in another vote for The Wheel. It's simply the most universally useful tech. The argument that your Worker should be doing other things doesn't hold water. It's not like you ONLY have The Wheel. The roads aren't pointless, but rather hook up resources, get Settlers to city sites faster, or facilitate military rushes.

    After The Wheel, the most universally useful tech is Agriculture, since you don't need food resources to use it, just fresh water. It may be rare, but sometimes farming Flood Plains or even Grasslands is sometimes the best option early in a city's development.

    Then there's the obvious fact that The Wheel + Agriculture gets you to cottages faster. So that's my favorite starting combo.

    But I have to agree that China's unique combo of Agriculture + Mining is quite good. So good, in fact, that it makes up for the lackluster traits and UB. There's also a synergy between the Protective trait and the UU that makes China better than the sum of its unimpressive parts.
     
  8. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    I am not even close to deity, but I have seen many, many barb spears on monarch, especially (it seems) when I don't have metal.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    That's because you aren't boxed into 6 cities (assuming you REX top speed) ;).
     
  10. Monsterzuma

    Monsterzuma the sly one

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    Chariots more quickly move between cities, so you can easily gather 4 of them in one city within a few turns when the situation desperately requires it. They can also directly attack invading barbarians that are two tiles away from the city they are stationed at.
     
  11. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    No, not always, but what difference does that make? You mean because deity AI rexes so fast that their cities fogbust for you? I could see how that would make a difference, but not as to what barb units appear.
     
  12. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    Aside from hooking up an early military roads can be neglected imo and should be - improving tiles early in the game is more important than roads. I'd rate it behind Agriculture and Mining.

    There is also not a need to start cottages faster. Emphasis needs to be on improving tiles that expedite expansion, I.E., special resource and military tiles, mines, and FP farms. I like chariots vs Axes for REX as well, even better with WC or Immortals.. I usually encounter at least 1 spearman every game however - but that's ok.
     
  13. popejubal

    popejubal Emperor

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    I have to say that I hate War Chariots and the other Chariot based UUs.

    I have to tech to Animal Husbandry to find the Horses and then I have to send out a Settler, Pasture the Horses and connect the resource to make it work and by the time I do that and tech mining/build mines to get the production that I'll need to actually build the units, my window for using them has largely passed.

    Most of that is probably because I only go for even an Axe rush if I see an easy and attractive target close by. With the extra steps required for a Chariot rush, I just can't get my act together before it's too late. I know that the rush is more effective when done right because Chariots' 2 move gets them where they need to go a lot faster, but it really seems like the window is smaller.
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Even on immortal, I rarely see anything beyond barb archers unless I'm isolated or got an unusual tract of land blocked. Yes, the AI expands so quickly that by the time the barbs get the bronzeworking research bonus, much of the land is already settled, either by me or the AI. I've had a number of immortal/normal games where I used nothing but warriors for fogbust/barb d and killed maybe 1-2 warriors...then no barbs could spawn anymore. I'd imagine a lot of deity starts to be like that too, although there is some initial barb trouble because they show up and enter borders very early. It tends to be warriors/archers in force though, not copper units.
     
  15. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    experimenting with archer accumulation of late as

    Fact- Horse may or may not be there

    Fact- Bronze may or may not be there

    a gambit for either throws one into a postion of shifting and tech confusion.
    Hunting, Fishing as shown by Venn Diagram, are the superior.
     
  16. Airey

    Airey Prince

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    Maybe coz higher level AI starts with settlers, and the Barbarian simply doesn't have time to get to spear with all the lands settled/fog busted.

    Chariots's 2 movement point, as pointed out previously, is also 2x better at fog busting vs axeman/swordsman. Thus you have less barb generated to deal with in the first place. Plus you can generally get them sooner.

    The only other time I can think of that a stack of barbarian spear shows up is via random events.

    How's this different from having to make axeman/swordsman if the copper/iron source isn't in the x.
    Plus, AH usually work with food resources that also have hammers: horse and cow. Grow while you produce early on is better than a 5/6 hammer tile imo.
     
  17. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    Deity is more extreme... archers are a BLOODY nuisance, and they hit early enough that worker first is unsafe without something like settling on a plains hill, and a start like worker/settler is asking for it.

    On normal speed, the ridiculouslness is over very quickly though: the AIs settle more quickly and get additional fogbusters, and the player will often try to keep up with extreme REXing. Can't think of any Deity game where I saw anything more advanced than archers.
     
  18. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    Well, I'm lucky as hell when it comes to HUTS when I'm forced to use those noobified settings, but, I must be very unlucky with barbarians because I always see spearman and axeman - and I play lots of pangea maps where fog busting is easier or the land is already settled - Yet, from the 1-3 spaces not fogbusted I get a superhero barbarian.

    @ Pope

    If you are creative you can have WC hooked up and knocking out units fast. If horses are far away simply chop a few out and don't worry about a trade route to the capital.

    When I am not creative a always start my first settler at 2 pop (assuming I want WC and Immortals - not with every leader) so I can pop borders in time to get quick units - hopefully avoidable in the first place if you can found the city in a location with the horsies in the first ring.
     
  19. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    I positively despise hunting. The AH bonus is minor. What? Maybe a turn? However, it prevents you from training warriors. Cheap happiness.

    As for the scout thing, at the higher levels the AI has huge advantages in getting the huts and the difference between warriors and scouts in hut rewards is minimal. They both give you sucky stuff like maps and (still more) scouts. Furthermore warriors survive exploration far better than scouts. Not only do they have a chance against warriors and archers, they are also better against animals.

    Hunting is good for camps. That's it. If I have stuff that needs to be camped, I'll research it. Grudgingly. And it's cheap so why do I want it as a starting tech?

    I seem to be a minority of one on this but I have no use for archers either. Like warriors, they can't actually attack incoming barbs. They have to defend. I'd rather defend with a swarm of warriors than research two useless techs to get something which is only 50% better and costs more.
     
  20. popejubal

    popejubal Emperor

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    The difference is that when I Axe rush, I only research Bronze Working, Agriculture and Roads and I only actually go for the rush if I have a convenient source of Copper at a good second city site or in the BFC.

    If I'm going for a Horse rush, I need Horses and I still need the Mining/Bronze Working in addition to the Animal Husbandry. And I need to research Animal Husbandry before sending out the Settler, so that I know where to send him. Those 8-14 extra turns for Animal Husbandry don't seem like a lot, but they add up when the window for a rush is so small for me.
     

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