I am not even close to deity, but I have seen many, many barb spears on monarch, especially (it seems) when I don't have metal.
Really? I can't recall ever having this happen when I was playing monarch. It was always warriors, then archers, then, occasionally, axemen, which chariots own anyway.
That's because you aren't boxed into 6 cities (assuming you REX top speed)
.
I guess this could be a factor. The AI's start with extra units for fog-busting.
Chariots more quickly move between cities, so you can easily gather 4 of them in one city within a few turns when the situation desperately requires it. They can also directly attack invading barbarians that are two tiles away from the city they are stationed at.
Yes, and this is another benefit chariots have. I can't tell you how many times I've stolen a worker from barbarians by exploiting the 2-move advantage chariots have.
No, not always, but what difference does that make? You mean because deity AI rexes so fast that their cities fogbust for you? I could see how that would make a difference, but not as to what barb units appear.
I don't know if it does or doesn't affect the units themselves, but from my experience, I've seen almost no barbarian spears. The most recent deity game that I'm playing (the Deity Warmongerers) saw 1 barbarian archer near my borders. One.
I have to say that I hate War Chariots and the other Chariot based UUs.
I have to tech to Animal Husbandry to find the Horses and then I have to send out a Settler, Pasture the Horses and connect the resource to make it work and by the time I do that and tech mining/build mines to get the production that I'll need to actually build the units, my window for using them has largely passed.
Most of that is probably because I only go for even an Axe rush if I see an easy and attractive target close by. With the extra steps required for a Chariot rush, I just can't get my act together before it's too late. I know that the rush is more effective when done right because Chariots' 2 move gets them where they need to go a lot faster, but it really seems like the window is smaller.
If you're upset over teching AH, then why not have Agriculture and Hunting as starting techs for maximum discount?
You have to send out a settler in most cases even if you're going for copper rather than horses. Horses are more common in the capital anyway. Also, for chariot/immortal/war chariot rushes, the majority of my production is from chopping/whipping, so with Agr/Hunting as starting techs I go AH, then Mining, then BW (insert wheel if necessary). This suits me well, since I can often get a city near the horses by the time BW comes in, to instantly start chopping/whipping.
Even on immortal, I rarely see anything beyond barb archers unless I'm isolated or got an unusual tract of land blocked. Yes, the AI expands so quickly that by the time the barbs get the bronzeworking research bonus, much of the land is already settled, either by me or the AI. I've had a number of immortal/normal games where I used nothing but warriors for fogbust/barb d and killed maybe 1-2 warriors...then no barbs could spawn anymore. I'd imagine a lot of deity starts to be like that too, although there is some initial barb trouble because they show up and enter borders very early. It tends to be warriors/archers in force though, not copper units.
I have this same experience of rarely seeing anything beyond barb archers.
You're right about deity starts being like this. The recent Deity Warmongers game posted here doesn't require teching towards archery for barb protection (although for AI protection it's probably necessary).
Maybe coz higher level AI starts with settlers, and the Barbarian simply doesn't have time to get to spear with all the lands settled/fog busted.
Chariots's 2 movement point, as pointed out previously, is also 2x better at fog busting vs axeman/swordsman. Thus you have less barb generated to deal with in the first place. Plus you can generally get them sooner.
The only other time I can think of that a stack of barbarian spear shows up is via random events.
If you get 6 barbarian spears showing up, you're pretty much dead anyway since no one can afford to divert resources to have so many defenders in the early game without hindering themselves.
Deity is more extreme... archers are a BLOODY nuisance, and they hit early enough that worker first is unsafe without something like settling on a plains hill, and a start like worker/settler is asking for it.
On normal speed, the ridiculouslness is over very quickly though: the AIs settle more quickly and get additional fogbusters, and the player will often try to keep up with extreme REXing. Can't think of any Deity game where I saw anything more advanced than archers.
I positively despise hunting. The AH bonus is minor. What? Maybe a turn? However, it prevents you from training warriors. Cheap happiness.
As for the scout thing, at the higher levels the AI has huge advantages in getting the huts and the difference between warriors and scouts in hut rewards is minimal. They both give you sucky stuff like maps and (still more) scouts. Furthermore warriors survive exploration far better than scouts. Not only do they have a chance against warriors and archers, they are also better against animals.
Hunting is good for camps. That's it. If I have stuff that needs to be camped, I'll research it. Grudgingly. And it's cheap so why do I want it as a starting tech?
I seem to be a minority of one on this but I have no use for archers either. Like warriors, they can't actually attack incoming barbs. They have to defend. I'd rather defend with a swarm of warriors than research two useless techs to get something which is only 50% better and costs more.
I can build about 3 warriors before I connect horses (that is - if I get horses - if I need to tech to Archery afterwards then that's an extra warrior for me), which serve as future happy sources.
Hunting's not only good for camps. Hunting is the prerequisite for BOTH Archery and Animal Husbandry which are 2 very crucial techs. In addition, don't spears require hunting?
I suggest you search for U Sun's dual deity challenge, play the Gilgamesh game, and DON'T tech Archery. Good luck.
The difference is that when I Axe rush, I only research Bronze Working, Agriculture and Roads and I only actually go for the rush if I have a convenient source of Copper at a good second city site or in the BFC.
If I'm going for a Horse rush, I need Horses and I still need the Mining/Bronze Working in addition to the Animal Husbandry. And I need to research Animal Husbandry before sending out the Settler, so that I know where to send him. Those 8-14 extra turns for Animal Husbandry don't seem like a lot, but they add up when the window for a rush is so small for me.
If you start with Agr/Hunting, as I prefer, then you only research AH, build a settler at size 2 or something, while teching Mining - BW and inserting the Wheel somewhere if necessary. As I mentioned before, this lets both of your cities grow and ensures that you already have horses connected by the time BW is researched. And with a starting scout, you have a greater chance of popping one of the necessary techs from huts. Also, axes are more expensive than chariots, aren't they? (And chariots includes war chariots and immortals
.)
