Circus Maximus

stachnie

Theorist
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Messages
533
Location
Not far from Krakow, Poland
I am curious if any of you managed to build Circus Maximus. Its requirements seem to be not very big (some tech and 5 Hippodromes) but in fact to build a Hippodrome one needs a separate source of Horses (a pasture, an subdued animal or National Horse Breeder). Because Hippodrome requires Chariot Workshop it means that it must be built before Engineering. And it is very unlikely to have 5 separate sources of Horses at that time.

I managed to build C.M. only once, when I cheated (I put a few subdued horses using WB). I would suggest to lower its requirements, e.g. to three Hippodromes. This wonder is not so great anyway.

S.
 
I am curious if any of you managed to build Circus Maximus. Its requirements seem to be not very big (some tech and 5 Hippodromes) but in fact to build a Hippodrome one needs a separate source of Horses (a pasture, an subdued animal or National Horse Breeder). Because Hippodrome requires Chariot Workshop it means that it must be built before Engineering. And it is very unlikely to have 5 separate sources of Horses at that time.

I managed to build C.M. only once, when I cheated (I put a few subdued horses using WB). I would suggest to lower its requirements, e.g. to three Hippodromes. This wonder is not so great anyway.

S.

Well, if you hunt a lot, 5 horses are not a big deal, even before the classical era. Depends where you started I guess... In my games, the CM is always build, either by the AI or by ME.
 
Well, if you hunt a lot, 5 horses are not a big deal, even before the classical era. Depends where you started I guess... In my games, the CM is always build, either by the AI or by ME.

Well, depending on your mapscript, horses "probably" aren't a problem, but with the one i started with on the continent i am on has only 4 horse resources, and i am playing on HUGE continents each. I am at 1400 turns, and only have taken over 1/2 the continent, which has taken me approximately now 3 weeks, everyday at 4 hours each DAY, JUST to get this far. And i am only in Industrial Era about 1/3 way in.
 
I am curious if any of you managed to build Circus Maximus. Its requirements seem to be not very big (some tech and 5 Hippodromes) but in fact to build a Hippodrome one needs a separate source of Horses (a pasture, an subdued animal or National Horse Breeder). Because Hippodrome requires Chariot Workshop it means that it must be built before Engineering. And it is very unlikely to have 5 separate sources of Horses at that time.

I managed to build C.M. only once, when I cheated (I put a few subdued horses using WB). I would suggest to lower its requirements, e.g. to three Hippodromes. This wonder is not so great anyway.

S.

I agree with you. I had only one map Horse resource and one subdued when the Circus became potentially available to build, but it was ages before I was actually able to build it. I had to settle two remotish cities on Horse resources, and then grow them to size 6. It seemed to take forever. And the fact that I completed it means that all the AIs had the same problems I did.

The one mitigating factor is: you can build two (sometimes more) cities so as to share one map resource. But this doesn't help if you only have one, and Horses in my experience don't come up in hunting very much at all (unlike Quolls for example:rolleyes:).
 
Its hard but not impossible. I have gotten it in my games. The key is subduing horses or strategically placing 2 cities between 1 horse resource. Or even just getting Tengriism. By far Tengriism is the easiest way to get it. And don't forget to place the National Horse Breeder in the city that has no horses near it and no Horse Herd building.
 
A Central Asian religion (which Rome never encountered) being a shortcut to a Roman Wonder seems a bit wrong to me...
 
And yet you have no problem with either North or South American or Oceanic peoples having access to horses pre European invasions.:mischief:

No I do not. Horses are not culture-specific like the Roman circus and Tengriism are. And I've no objection to Rome converting to Tengriism. And I don't think Rome should have a shortcut to the CM either (although if anyone is going to, it ought to be Rome).

I rarely like the idea of civs having shortcuts to World Wonders at all. But if you are going to have them, at least give them to the 'right' civs.:)
 
The resource system in Civilisation has always made me scratch my head a little when dealing with living resources. It's fine for, say, iron, which obviously has to be dug out of the ground in the correct location. Crops also make sense to be fixed if we take it as 'prime growing terrain' for those crops, thus allowing much higher harvests than elsewhere. However, I've always been confused why it is that I can't move animals, like, say, horses, to a different area of my empire but have to keep them pastured in the area my ancestors found them millennia ago!

Obviously, in the prehistoric era, it makes sense: you're just following the herd around, not attempting to breed it and move some of it to another city. However, by the time of the Classical Era people have surely figured out how to move a herd of horses from one city to the next!

I'd suggest that, for domestic animals, one should be able to build the (subdued) animal in any city which is able to gain the other benefits from that animal, unlocked when that animal is domesticated. For instance, after researching Equine Domestication, any city with a horse herd, or horses in the city vicinity, or a national horse breeder, would be able to make a horse unit, which could then make a horse herd in another city. Obviously, megafauna could be moved with Megafauna Domestication, etc. Obviously domesticated creatures without a specific tech would become buildable at livestock domestication.

Since the player still needs access to a creature to be able to make another herd, this wouldn't unlock constructions people couldn't make anyway. It also comes late enough that the production and food benefits from a herd are minimal. The only thing it does is allow a player to gain access to the relevant buildings in all their cities, and not find that any cities they settle after animals stop spawning are unable to get any herds. If you imagine what going out to create a new city may actually have been like, the settlers would quite likely would have taken large numbers of animals with them as they went, to make a living once they arrived. This would mimic this by allowing civilisations to move animals with, or after, the initial settlers.

As things stand, as I understand it, it's impossible for the Native American civilisations to gain proper access to horses even after they are discovered by the European civilisations, in a map like the GEM. It may be possible to get access to them indirectly, but there's no way to get a horse herd to anywhere in the new world.* This is obviously wrong, when you think about tribes like the Sioux.

*If there is, then please excuse my ignorance of the mod and ignore this point!

This would also deal with issues like this, and allow the Romans to build a Hippodrome in all their cities which are big enough. Given that according the Wikipedia they managed to make 61 circuses (which, it claims, are the Roman equivalent of the Greek hippodromes), it doesn't...really seem like something that only a tiny proportion of their big cities could make.
 
Absolutely correct. Great idea! :goodjob: Although it (the subdued animal) might have to be extra-expensive to build, to prevent it being OP. More like a Supply Train than a subdued animal.
 
Absolutely correct. Great idea! :goodjob: Although it (the subdued animal) might have to be extra-expensive to build, to prevent it being OP. More like a Supply Train than a subdued animal.

This is precisely (a subset of) what the Great Farmer does, so I take it you're looking for an easier/earlier way to achieve the same thing? Perhaps a buildable 'herder' unit, that is specific to the herd type and requires a herd as a vicinity building to create it? This would have a SINGLE mission (establish new herd) which does what the GF mission does, but only for that specific animal type...?

Or perhaps a less powerful mission that builds a (variant of that doesn't require vicinity resource) herd in another city. Thus:

vicinity resource -> local herd -> allows training of herder -> can construct secondary herd

where 'secondary herd' has the same stats as herd but lacks the vicinity resource requirement and cannot be built where the primary herd already exists

Something like one of the above?
 
Yes, I agree 100%. But to be fair to the Tengrii religion special abilitiy(ies) this new method of obtaining the herd unit/building in a new city should be harder than getting horse access via Tengrii.

Should also apply to other herd/flock buildings as well (goats, sheep, pigs, buffalo, cow, poultry, etc..)
 
This is precisely (a subset of) what the Great Farmer does, so I take it you're looking for an easier/earlier way to achieve the same thing? Perhaps a buildable 'herder' unit, that is specific to the herd type and requires a herd as a vicinity building to create it? This would have a SINGLE mission (establish new herd) which does what the GF mission does, but only for that specific animal type...?

Or perhaps a less powerful mission that builds a (variant of that doesn't require vicinity resource) herd in another city. Thus:

vicinity resource -> local herd -> allows training of herder -> can construct secondary herd

where 'secondary herd' has the same stats as herd but lacks the vicinity resource requirement and cannot be built where the primary herd already exists

Something like one of the above?

umm yes please! :D It would be better if it didn't have to create a map resource, but rather the herd 'building'. I suggest that the unit should be quite easy to build (with some prereq early Classical tech), but that the building of the herd in the new location should take some time.

(Off-topic but) I would suggest that this applies to Cattle, Sheep, Goats, Deer and Ratites as well, and possibly others.
 
Yes, I agree 100%. But to be fair to the Tengrii religion special abilitiy(ies) this new method of obtaining the herd unit/building in a new city should be harder than getting horse access via Tengrii.

Should also apply to other herd/flock buildings as well (goats, sheep, pigs, buffalo, cow, poultry, etc..)

Yes doing this does mean that the Tengrii religion may as well be removed.
 
I don't think so. It still provides the unique wind-something promotions which are quite powerful.
 
I should point out that I have been able to build the Circus Maximus in about 5 of my last 10 games and in only one of those did I convert to Tengrii to do it. Personally I don't think any change is needed.
 
I should point out that I have been able to build the Circus Maximus in about 5 of my last 10 games and in only one of those did I convert to Tengrii to do it. Personally I don't think any change is needed.

You can build it because the conditions are even more impossible for the AI than they are for the player! ;) It's a further argument for a change.
 
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