City Development

[gunnergoz]

Have there been any rumblings that core code might be made public in the near future? Or ever?

 

[manarod]

I'd like to discuss two kind of building that for me now are been changed too much

Defensive building: are walls now too much strong? With the right policies walls give 2 food, 2 production and two happiness. Is not that difficult to obtain these policies by middleages. I have said goodbye to watermills and granary for the walls. Walls are better without maintenance

National wonders: i don't know if they are been changed, but for me now is very difficult to build. The first two (college and epic) have to been build with two or three cities. In my latest game i have 6 cities. In marathon the city i would like to make my cultural capital will take 250/200 turn to build the epic. Is the increasing cost a little too much?

 

[Txurce]

I'd like to discuss two kind of building that for me now are been changed too much

Defensive building: are walls now too much strong? With the right policies walls give 2 food, 2 production and two happiness. Is not that difficult to obtain these policies by middleages. I have said goodbye to watermills and granary for the walls. Walls are better without maintenance

Defensive buildings were recently buffed soon after someone made the opposite complaint you're making now!

 

[manarod]

Defensive buildings were recently buffed soon after someone made the opposite complaint you're making now!

Yes i know, i'm not said that it's wrong, i think they are just too strong

 

[Ahriman]

I think the walls by themselves are definitely not too strong. If you think they're too strong with various policies, then your issue is really with the policies, not the walls. But remember that those policies have an opportunity cost; in getting those, you're *not* getting something else. And if you're getting lots of the wall policies from multiple trees, then you're also probably going to miss out on finisher bonuses from the trees (or have these long delayed).

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree with Ahriman. It's feasible to get several policies that enhance defense buildings, but doing so means it's harder to get policy tree finishers. I feel the tradeoff works well.

National Wonders cost more but require only 75% of the prerequisite buildings (100% in vanilla). These two effects balance out. Also, in vanilla NW construction is halted after acquiring a new city. In VEM construction is not interrupted, which can make it easier to build NWs.

 

[Txurce]

Yes i know, i'm not said that it's wrong, i think they are just too strong

I agree with you that walls seem a bit too strong for me, given the huge effect they have on early invaders just by their very existence. (They slow way down.) I was just pointing out that it's (clearly) a matter of opinion, and that Thal pushed them in a direction you don't like because someone else raised the opposite issue.

 

[tlaurila]

On the topic of wall bonuses, they are strong, perhaps overtly so, in my opinion. More importantly, though, they're also mostly in Tradition, which is otherwise strong, too. I might suggest moving the walls happiness bonus to Liberty somewhere from the Tradition finisher? That would help Liberty give the happiness it needs for building the wide civ it gives production to.

 

[Ahriman]

More importantly, though, they're also mostly in Tradition, which is otherwise strong, too. I might suggest moving the walls happiness bonus to Liberty somewhere from the Tradition finisher?

One possibility would be to remove the production bonus and have a Liberty policy give the happiness bonus. I don't think any tree should have 2 sets of bonuses from walls.

I think one of the biggest problems with Liberty is that it doesn't support happiness enough; happiness is the big problem for a wide empire, so a wide-empire-supporting tree should support happiness. Whereas happiness is not much of a problem for a tall empire; food is, and low production, so the food bonus makes sense in Tradition.

 

[tlaurila]

I don't think any tree should have 2 sets of bonuses from walls.

Tradition now has (food and happiness), doesn't it?

 

[Ahriman]

Tradition now has (food and happiness), doesn't it?

Which is why I am suggesting removing the happiness bonus from Tradition, but not giving both happiness and production bonuses to Liberty.

 

[bwoww78]

from what i recall,

honor provides +2 happiness for defense buildings
liberty provides +2 production for defense buildings
tradition provides +2 food for defense buildings

given all these buildings are maintenance free, i think these are great buffs (because other than playing as Washington---with pioneer forts---i take my chances and would rarely build walls anyways in vanilla)

Since there has been talk before of the weak liberty finisher (I agree with Ahriman) it should change from a -5% happiness from unoccupied cites (which is a pretty lame happiness boost that late into the tree IMHO) to a production bonus for happiness-related buildings (similar to Freedom's bonus for specialist buildings in the opener).

I would leave the +2 production for defense buildings in liberty as i do appreciate the added help for non coastal cities who could use an early start (and don't get love from commerce's bonuses to production as well as harbor/seaport boosts).

Though i could be confusing the honor +2 happiness per defense building now that i think of it...

 

[Thalassicus]

@bwoww78
Honor originally gave happiness from defensive buildings, but I moved it to the Tradition tree at Ahriman's suggestion a few weeks ago. Honor gives extra happiness from Colosseums instead, based on Sneaks' suggestion at that time.

 

[Ahriman]

To be clear: my suggestion was that happiness from walls didn't fit well in Honor, not that we should have two boosts from walls in Tradition.

How about: happiness from Walls in Liberty (Liberty needs the happiness boost the most), food from walls in Tradition (as current), and happiness from Colosseums in Honor (as current).

Production from walls we then lose, and come up with another Tradition finisher that doesn't involve walls.

 

[bwoww78]

To be clear: my suggestion was that happiness from walls didn't fit well in Honor, not that we should have two boosts from walls in Tradition.

How about: happiness from Walls in Liberty (Liberty needs the happiness boost the most), food from walls in Tradition (as current), and happiness from Colosseums in Honor (as current).

Production from walls we then lose, and come up with another Tradition finisher that doesn't involve walls.

i concur, and thanks for the clarification. i'll miss that production bonus, but I'd still vote for change to the Liberty finisher. That change could be similar to the Freedom opener (but for happiness buildings instead of cultural) or it just a simple increase of the % decrease in unhappiness (current).

 

[Ahriman]

[Liberty finisher] or just a simple increase of the % decrease in unhappiness (current)

This seems plausible, but I would probably add the walls bonus first before changing anything else, we don't want to make it too easy to expand unchecked by happiness.

 

[thevinn]

I find that after I pop the social policy that gives you 4 free cultural buildings (I time it for benefit as suggested by someone in another post) I have an overwhelming surplus of happiness (like, 100). Rarely do I get some of the finishers, especially when it means picking up a social policy that yields even more happiness. Granted I'm playing on Normal difficulty. I usually expand twice and conquer my fourth, then when the anarchy phase has run its course I buy up buildings and hit that social policy. Even after creating 5 puppets I still had a surplus of happiness.

 

[Seek]

A few notes from my recent games:

1. Why do mines on Coal give +3 ? I have no real issue with the early coal reveal, but a 6 production tile that early is awfully powerful.

2. I would like to see a reversion to vanilla's 3 tile city placement scheme: I find I *never* place a city that close (do others?) but the AI Civs seem to make a habit of plopping down cities right next to mine, and it's more irritating than anything else. Perhaps they're baiting me?

3. Why the move of Stable and Circus to Trade (formerly Trapping)? Strikes me as incongruous. I suppose it's just the name of the tech more than anything - surely we can come up with something better?

 

[mitsho]

I find that after I pop the social policy that gives you 4 free cultural buildings (I time it for benefit as suggested by someone in another post) I have an overwhelming surplus of happiness (like, 100). Rarely do I get some of the finishers, especially when it means picking up a social policy that yields even more happiness. Granted I'm playing on Normal difficulty. I usually expand twice and conquer my fourth, then when the anarchy phase has run its course I buy up buildings and hit that social policy. Even after creating 5 puppets I still had a surplus of happiness.

Too much happiness? Simpel, move up one level!

The Walls seem awfully strong, though I agree it is difficult to reach all the Social Policies at once. But imho, it's the Castle and the Military Arsenal (or whatever the third defensive building is called. That makes +6 Food, +6 Production and +6 Happiness. For balance sake, the walls should give less (+1) while the others give more, as I see it. But that doesn't seem to be possible.

 

[Thalassicus]

A few notes from my recent games:

1. Why do mines on Coal give +3 ? I have no real issue with the early coal reveal, but a 6 production tile that early is awfully powerful.

2. I would like to see a reversion to vanilla's 3 tile city placement scheme: I find I *never* place a city that close (do others?) but the AI Civs seem to make a habit of plopping down cities right next to mine, and it's more irritating than anything else. Perhaps they're baiting me?

3. Why the move of Stable and Circus to Trade (formerly Trapping)? Strikes me as incongruous. I suppose it's just the name of the tech more than anything - surely we can come up with something better?

1. That's just how it's set up in vanilla. I can lower it if you want.
2. I frequently place cities 2 tiles apart. I tried the ban for a while but found it frustrating, since it limits our strategic options.
3. Those two buildings represent livestock domestication. Trade seems like a good prompt for domestication... easier to trade tame animals than wild ones. From a gameplay perspective, it significantly enhances the value of that tech and allows us to build Stables before Chariots.

@mitsho
I can individually set each defense building's bonuses, but it'd be somewhat inconsistent. Keep in mind the arsenal does not add +6 food, production, and happiness. The Arsenal's bonuses require investing in both Tradition and Liberty, trees with divergent goals. If we compare a hospital to an arsenal in a 15 city (reasonable for a tall empire likely to go Tradition):

Hospital
360 cost
+8 (minimum)

Arsenal
360 cost
+2
+2
+7

Or to compare some earlier buildings:

Watermill
120 cost
+1
+2
+1 Engineer slot

Walls
90 cost
+2
+2
+5

With both Tradition and Liberty walls are good, but I feel it's justified. Investing that heavily in two different policy trees and a building deserves a powerful reward.