City-State Discussion

[Louis XXIV]

I think it's called that because the temples are better preserved. The best-preserved Greek ruins are in Sicily anyway. I think places like Delphi, Olympia, and Delos were more religious centers.

As for giving each a UU, I've been thinking about the idea, but it obviously needs to be done one step at a time because it could be too monumental otherwise.

 

[nokmirt]

I think it's called that because the temples are better preserved. The best-preserved Greek ruins are in Sicily anyway. I think places like Delphi, Olympia, and Delos were more religious centers.

As for giving each a UU, I've been thinking about the idea, but it obviously needs to be done one step at a time because it could be too monumental otherwise.

Yes, Agrigento is less well known typically, but I imagine it had its role to play religiously for the people that lived there back then. The Greeks needed places of worship, while in Sicily. The temples there are well preserved. In any case, it would be a nice backup for a religious CS name is all. They can be hard to come by.

 

[tetley]

IMHO, giving CS their own UU's is too much work for too little spice. That's what I think. But if you do it, at least you can give CS UU's that were rejected before for being overpowered. I will give that much.

 

[nokmirt]

IMHO, giving CS their own UU's is too much work for too little spice. That's what I think. But if you do it, at least you can give CS UU's that were rejected before for being overpowered. I will give that much.

Unless you give one UU per type of CS. Then a chance to either recieve the CSs UU, rather than a regular spawned unit. That could work nicely.

 

[Gucumatz]

Tula/Tullan/Tollan for a Religious Mesoamerican City State. Supposedly the city of creation/spreading of the Maya peoples.

Monte Alban for a Mercantile City State, Teotihuacan reclassified as a city state (Militaristic/Religious), etc.

Tzintzuntzan as a militaristic City State. Some more I am missing for sure.

 

[PhilBowles]

Syracuse is actually likely both a Greek and Roman city

Well, it was in essence a Greek city in Roman territory - it was famously the Romans who invaded it and killed Archimedes. I think in older versions of Civ it was a Roman city, but they didn't have CSes then. Don't recall seeing it in the current version.

The nice thing about Italy is, at one point, there were a ton of city-states (we could say the same thing about Greece if it weren't for that stupid Greek civilization in game ). If Syracuse isn't on a list, that would be ideal for a city-state from the Greek world. Ilion (Troy) could also work. I think Knossos is on the Greek list, but that's a third.

I did get a chuckle out of Troy turning up as a city-state in Wonders of the Ancient World, and yes I think it probably should be one of them.

Tula/Tulan/Tulum for a Religious Mesoamerican City State. Supposedly the city of creation/spreading of the Maya peoples.

And in actuality a major Mayan trading centre (hence mercantile would probably be more appropriate). All the major Mayan cities were in essence city-states, but as we're getting the Maya as a civilization, it seems very unlikely Tulum won't be on their city list, so that at least is unavailable.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Actually, the ancient city Syracuse appears once, for Greece. I use "ancient city" modifier because the upstate New York city Syracuse is an Iroquois city.

After reflecting more on Troy, I think it would be problematic to make the militaristic. The city certainly fought in many wars, but we know this because of how many times it was burned to the ground. They were more likely to have been a juicy target than an instigator. Certainly, whatever historical truth there is in the Iliad, they were not the aggressor there. To me, Mercantile makes more sense.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well, it was in essence a Greek city in Roman territory - it was famously the Romans who invaded it and killed Archimedes. I think in older versions of Civ it was a Roman city, but they didn't have CSes then. Don't recall seeing it in the current version.



I did get a chuckle out of Troy turning up as a city-state in Wonders of the Ancient World, and yes I think it probably should be one of them.



And in actuality a major Mayan trading centre (hence mercantile would probably be more appropriate). All the major Mayan cities were in essence city-states, but as we're getting the Maya as a civilization, it seems very unlikely Tulum won't be on their city list, so that at least is unavailable.

Tulum has never been on a Maya City List before?

Why would it be now?

Edit: Misspellings and different versions of names always get me.

I apologize. Tulum in fact has never appeared. However an alternate name "Zama" has appeared. However, was not the city I wished to say which was Tula.

 

[Gucumatz]

Lets be clear Tulum was never a "Maya City". It was significantly important to the Maya, but wasn't a Maya City.

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Edit 2: Nevermind big fail on my part. Looks like I found a way to misspell things.

I meant to only spell Tula/Tullan/Tollan rather than Tulum (which was indeed a Maya city). The city in fact I was trying to say was the Toltec city rather than the later named "Zama". Sorry about the confusion.

However yes it was city that came later into the fold of the Maya as well and wasnt originally Maya

 

[PhilBowles]

Actually, the ancient city Syracuse appears once, for Greece. I use "ancient city" modifier because the upstate New York city Syracuse is an Iroquois city.

Okay, well that's just weird. Whoever would have thought Hiwatha was so well-versed in Classical European history that he'd name settlements after places from the Hellenic world?

After reflecting more on Troy, I think it would be problematic to make the militaristic. The city certainly fought in many wars, but we know this because of how many times it was burned to the ground. They were more likely to have been a juicy target than an instigator. Certainly, whatever historical truth there is in the Iliad, they were not the aggressor there. To me, Mercantile makes more sense.[/QUOTE]

The trouble with the Civ V division intuitively is that, for almost any city you care to name, mercantile will make most sense, including (and perhaps especially) for maritime states. Most major cities are trading hubs, often built on rivers or coastlines. Those that have survived as self-sufficient city-states are almost through necessity major commercial centres or rely on income from particular trade goods. While some cities are known primarily for culture, and a small number for their religious significance, very few can be considered wholly militaristic. Troy is, nonetheless, best-known for its involvement in the eponymous war.

Lets be clear Tulum was never a "Maya City". It was significantly important to the Maya, but wasn't a Maya City.

Ah, that makes sense. I was somewhat confused as Tulum is actually a late-period Maya city, as well as the major trading port for Coba, and certainly when I was at the site last year I didn't recall any reference to Maya creation myths.

 

[Pouakai]

Venice should be merchantile, while Wellington could always be Maritime

 

[Louis XXIV]

The problem is, if you take away Venice as Maritime (which I think they might do) you're not really left with many maritime city-states that actually had an impressive navy. I don't think maritime was originally meant to mean "quiet fishing village"

 

[Keejus]

I don't get why there should be so few City States. In my mind, they should try to keep the number twice as big as the number of civs, so default settings would give you the same variety overall.

Incidentally, civs not currently in the game are an untapped source of city states. Athens and Sparta would be good cultural/military states in games without Alexander, North America could have at least Oneida, Onondaga and Teotihuacan, you could bring back Seoul and Copenhagen, and it'd free up Mecca as a religious CS in non-Arabia games...

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, it's important to keep in mind how many can be supported in-game. Unless they start making them more unique, there's little benefit to having more CS than can appear in game (unless they also start randomizing which kinds of city-states appear).

 

[tetley]

The problem is, if you take away Venice as Maritime (which I think they might do) you're not really left with many maritime city-states that actually had an impressive navy. I don't think maritime was originally meant to mean "quiet fishing village"

You know...why don't Maritime CS's have kick-butt navies? They should. Don't piss off Venice, or they'll blockade you.

 

[wobuffet]

Well, it's important to keep in mind how many can be supported in-game. Unless they start making them more unique, there's little benefit to having more CS than can appear in game (unless they also start randomizing which kinds of city-states appear).

I think that is random, actually: I've had games where almost half of CSs were Militaristic and practically maybe only 4 or so of the 16 were Cultural.

 

[Optional]

I don't see much in giving Unique Units to City States, not that I'm against it, but it wouldn't add much for me.

What I would find more interesting is giving unique flavours to the existing regular civs, affecting their interest in certain types of CS. What I mean is, Mongols could be made more interested in military CS, India in maritime CS, Netherlands in mercantile CS etc.
Currently an AI civ is either interested in all of them or in none of them. It would be more interesting for gameplay and a nice touch to diversify this.

 

[Gedemon]

Well, it's important to keep in mind how many can be supported in-game. Unless they start making them more unique, there's little benefit to having more CS than can appear in game (unless they also start randomizing which kinds of city-states appear).

You can have 41 CS in game, there's a CS mod in the YnAEMP's thread to reach that number (and I would also suggest mihaifx's City States Leaders mod, same thread).

Also a reminder about City States Unique Units, you can try this, it's modifiable so you can add your own list of UU for CS...

Yeah, right, that's a bit of self promotion, but from the beginning I've found that CS lacked personality, thus the above mods...

 

[Kimuyama]

What if city states had the same unique units as their "nearest" (favourably culture-wise, but also geographically) real world civilization?

For example:
Sanzibar would have either Persian Immortals, Arabic Camel Archers or what ever Ethiopia has for unique unit.
Marrakech would have Camel Archers or Mandekalu.
Singapore would have Cho-Ko-Nu or Naresuan’s Elephants.
Kathmandu would have Indian War Elephants.
Sydney with English Longbowmen and SOTLs.
Quebec with either French Musketeers and Foreign Legions, American Minutemen and B17s or Iroquois Mohawks.
Stockholm and Helsinki with Berserkers and Norwegian Ski Infantry (hehe).
Rio with Spanish (I know it's technically Portuguese, but they aint' in the game) Tercios and Conquistadors.
Vatican City with Roman Legionaires and scorpions.
Jerusalem with either Ottoman, Arab, Roman or Byzantine units.

I suppose you get the idea.

 

[Optional]

Also a reminder about City States Unique Units, you can try this, it's modifiable so you can add your own list of UU for CS...

Yeah, right, that's a bit of self promotion, but from the beginning I've found that CS lacked personality, thus the above mods...

I'm glad you didn't refrain from mentioning this just because it's your own brainchild. Also we all know the developers are interested in seeing what mods guys like you come up with, so this is very relevant.
I have to admit I personally didn't know about your mod, I'm happy you linked to it.