Civ 7 Doesn't Work Because The Optimization Paradigm Is For Tiny/Fast, But The Design Paradigm Is For Large/Epic

tman2000

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I just played my first tiny/fast game. It felt a lot better in some ways compared to my other play throughs. I don't have a fully coherent explanation for this, so some things that seemed better at tiny/fast:

  • Resource chasing, military and diplomacy decisions are very clear on a tiny map, and very well scaled to Antiquity's pace and settlement cap.
  • Wonder chasing and tech progression match the cadence of the age concept better. It feels more like trading off doing a wonder or a unit or a building, rather than waiting a while for a city to build a wonder. It feels like you're filling up points to get that winning score at the impending age end.
  • Exploration age feels much better, because even with the rough seas barrier before shipbuilding, the small map size still allows you to reasonably explore most of the map and decide what you want to do. In contrast, on large maps in long games, rough seas is a massive impediment to actually feeling like you're exploring the map.
  • Missionaries are less painful on small maps, since it's simply easier to get them anywhere they need to be.
  • Modern age works better because even if you do achieve massive yields (or another player does), you can fight over just a couple of cities and knock out their yields, focusing your tactical gameplay to that narrow circumstance.
The brevity, repetitiveness of the legacy paths, the streamlined unit tiers, the tactical military play, the age system all match with a clippy, smaller scope game. I think the game would mostly shine at high levels of competitive play where deep exploits are well understood by most players and it becomes a matter of spending half an age fighting over one or two resource tiles. The cadence and goals streamlining I would call the optimization paradigm. How to get Civ 7 streamlined and balanced for tight competitive play.

In contrast to this, the design paradigm calls for massive scope. The management streamlining is designed for scale. There are massive commander upgrade trees, and the commanders themselves, are suggestive of large, complicated military campaigns. The railroad tycoon system requires you to really stack resources to reach parity with the kinds of massive yields you can get through specialists. The thematic immersion of the age system as a thematic, not a streamlining premise requires sprawling territory that is slowly filled in distinct chunks from age to age. Exploration age should see you settling mainly the coasts of distant lands. Modern age should still have very large interiors to pioneer, to plant "pop up" cities where you can purchase powerful buildings to grow large cities very quickly. On large maps, this works pretty well.

The depth of feature variety lends towards a large scope. Towns vs. cities. Civ bonuses, for example Russia's tundra warfare civic, are tailored to very specific situations that don't work on small maps. All the navigable river bonuses work far far better on very large maps with actually long navigable rivers. Only a large map, for instance, will have enough lakes for Buganda's lake bonuses to really come into effect (although this is partly what Kabaka's lake is designed to mitigate, still the point is to find real lakes to settle). There are just way to many niche elements to the wide diversity of bonuses for these to work very well on a small map.

Finally, Civ 7's streamlining permits more military tactics, which favors a slower cadence so you can actually position, maneuver and employ armies within a tech upgrade window, instead of tech constantly upgrading while you're in the middle of war.

Ultimately, the medium map ("small") tries to compromise the clippy cadence with just enough breathing room for the niche features to come into play. While this partly works, it also partly fails. The optimization paradigm clashes with the design paradigm. You're chasing a legacy path, constrained by harsh balancing elements (like the god-awful culture paths), while also trying to make use of niche bonuses, and developing an empire. Within this box you can do some of all of it, but the more you embrace one side, the more the other side ruins your experience. The more you try to enjoy it as a streamlined victory rusher, the more you ignore a lot of the wider features and the more repetitive and annoying some things get. The more you try to build a vast empire and develop a niche, the more you're undermined by the constraints of legacy paths, or frustrated by how limited they are.

I recommend a vast unbalacing overhaul to make Civ 7 BIG. For example, instead of treasure fleets, I've proposed treasure and supply fleets. With colonial warehouses that receive supplies from the homelands, which function like factories a little, where the resources can be assigned to colonial outposts to help them grow in certain ways so you can colonize the interior. This would represent a twice as long exploration age. Or, with religion, two distinct phases: evangelizing and religious wars. Where religion is a thing that happens around you for you to reckon with, not some set of hyper-balanced bonuses that you engage with in a repetitive and frustrating way.

Then, in contrast to these almost "totally new game" changes, I'd create an "online mode" which takes the tiny/fast model and streamlines things even more.
  • Reduce commander upgrades to a single tree with basic specialization into unit type (make 6 units and initiative global upgrades).
  • Attributes are purchased with yields, and now incorporate things like your universalized commander upgrades.
  • Remove all tile type bonuses for civs and leaders, reducing it to one time yield drops rather than a recurring bonus.
  • Make missionaries and explorers go way way faster, then reduce their relevance. So it's a spam at the onset of an age then move on thing.
Etc.
 
This is what I suspect. They ultimately want short, snappy games and are aiming to grow multiplayer that way.

For the record, I played some online speed Civ VI games over the last month and quite enjoyed them as it was nice to finish a game in a day or two. I'll be back to Marathon soon enough, though.
 
Having played a bunch of games on maps larger than the standard size, I do get the distinct feeling that it's designed around much smaller maps. The resource density, settlement caps and slow unit speeds (especially the pathetically slow ship speeds) don't work very well on larger maps.
 
Having played a bunch of games on maps larger than the standard size, I do get the distinct feeling that it's designed around much smaller maps. The resource density, settlement caps and slow unit speeds (especially the pathetically slow ship speeds) don't work very well on larger maps.
I played my first few games on small, then tried standard. I immediately switched back after one game, because it felt so much better on the smaller map. My guess is that all the „important“ numbers (settlement cap, movement points, amount needed for legacy milestones, number of IPs) were done for small maps on standard speeds. It‘s also very surprising that some of these don‘t even scale on larger maps and become either more limiting (settlement cap) or boring/trivial (economic legacy paths). I was always more of an 6-10 player map player, but I know that larger maps are very popular, at least on these forums. FXS really needs a good way to scale numbers depending on map size. It should be rather easy for some (as the two mentioned above), others might be more difficult (EXP, some quests) or changing the game too much (movement points).
 
Having played a bunch of games on maps larger than the standard size, I do get the distinct feeling that it's designed around much smaller maps. The resource density, settlement caps and slow unit speeds (especially the pathetically slow ship speeds) don't work very well on larger maps.
Since map sizes larger than standard are not in the game without mods, it's clear the game is not designed for them yet. But we could expect some changes along with the release of those larger maps (for example, changes to resources were already announced) and I assume the game will support them much better.
 
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First of all - Civ has always been about fitting various ways of playing into this big unwieldy thing, so I'm inherently more relaxed about that than the OP.

After experimenting with larger maps they probably should be played on epic pace ( because of the distance scaling problem paired with slow movement).
I haven't felt that legacies become trivial on larger maps at all (that would be the case if settlement limits would scale - but they don't need to as long as the player/size ratio stays the same.) It does start to feel like the game will go on forever in mid Exploration. That's more a function of the vastness of spent time with one campaign starting to bite though.

But Antiquity on Epic / Large feels pretty good to me. I'm more worried about quick pace (which Civ6 was definitely balanced around if the tech wouldn't go so damn fast - but there are mods for that) because the pace you can put out units at is now faster than you can get rid of them and taking big cities takes forever. So military stalemates become a pretty likely thing.
 
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@Melkus just to clarify, I think the reason why the economic legacy paths (in 1st and 3rd age) get trivial even on standard map size is the amount of civs and IPs to trade with. It takes away one bottleneck (number of resources), but - fortunately - keeps the other one (resource slots) at least in part (there are more camels) due to the same settlement cap. The same applies to the cultural path in exploration: more capitals = more relics.

I agree that the military paths don‘t need much scaling. There are always enough opportunities to get settlements and the settlement cap is more important than the pool of settlements.
 
@Melkus just to clarify, I think the reason why the economic legacy paths (in 1st and 3rd age) get trivial even on standard map size is the amount of civs and IPs to trade with. It takes away one bottleneck (number of resources), but - fortunately - keeps the other one (resource slots) at least in part (there are more camels) due to the same settlement cap. The same applies to the cultural path in exploration: more capitals = more relics.

I agree that the military paths don‘t need much scaling. There are always enough opportunities to get settlements and the settlement cap is more important than the pool of settlements.
You can't trade with someone you're at war (unless you play as Prussia), so on 2 highest difficulty levels trading becomes much less trivial, especially in Modern where you could reliably have peace only with civilizations you share ideology with.
 
Since map sizes larger than standard are not in the game without mods, it's clear the game is not designed for them yet. But we could expect some changes along with the release of those larger maps (for example, changes to resources were already announced) and I assume the game will support them much better.
I could easily see adjusted settlement caps for different map sizes (though I wouldn't be surprised at all if they didn't do anything like that, as the settlement cap doesn't appear to scale with the smaller sizes), but I would be very surprised if they scaled unit speeds with map size; that would be unprecedented. And unfortunately, the very slow ship speeds are a serious problem even on "standard" map sizes. It takes half the Age to even get to the other side of the New World continent.
 
I could easily see adjusted settlement caps for different map sizes (though I wouldn't be surprised at all if they didn't do anything like that, as the settlement cap doesn't appear to scale with the smaller sizes), but I would be very surprised if they scaled unit speeds with map size; that would be unprecedented. And unfortunately, the very slow ship speeds are a serious problem even on "standard" map sizes. It takes half the Age to even get to the other side of the New World continent.
I don't think Firaxis will scale unit speed, but I totally see them, for example, increasing ship speed a bit for all map sizes.
 
I don't think Firaxis will scale unit speed, but I totally see them, for example, increasing ship speed a bit for all map sizes.
They definitely should increase ship speed in Exploration and later ages. It's absurd that we don't get ships faster than a galley until the Modern Age, and even then it's only the "fast" class that are one point faster. It's bad both from a plausibility AND a gameplay perspective.

But will they? I'd be surprised.
 
They definitely should increase ship speed in Exploration and later ages. It's absurd that we don't get ships faster than a galley until the Modern Age, and even then it's only the "fast" class that are one point faster. It's bad both from a plausibility AND a gameplay perspective.

But will they? I'd be surprised.
Why not? They did much bigger balance changes with their games in the past.
 
I am a little curious about what the right scaling around map size should be. Not even stuff like unit speed, but like, if I'm playing on a tiny map, I probably should have a lower settlement limit, a lower requirement for resources and wonders to complete those tiers, and so on, right?

Of course, on the flipside, if you have a larger map with more civs, you have more competition for the same fixed pool of wonders, so it becomes harder to actually get those numbers.
 
you have more competition for the same fixed pool of wonders
This is indeed hard to solve, you can't just scale back the number of wonders you need on larger maps. You could make it a relative race where you get the third point by having the most wonders at the end, I guess?
 
This is indeed hard to solve, you can't just scale back the number of wonders you need on larger maps. You could make it a relative race where you get the third point by having the most wonders at the end, I guess?
The interesting thing is that with my experience playing mostly small maps, I see wonders at something that you do mostly by yourself. Yes, there is competition for a limited pool of wonders, and it is possible to „fail“ because you run out of wonders. But I see the challenge as finding spots/time for building 7, and start rather fast, regardless of competition on that map size. And this feels great. The competition will ease once there are more wonders in the pool. Carthage already brought the first one, and RtR looks like it brings multiple more. Enough for 8 players then? Maybe. Enough for 10 or 12? No.
 
@Siptah So - to be clear - if no one gets to 7, the one with the most wonders gets an extra point? Wouldn't that solve the problem without hurting anything on smaller maps? You're right about the rising number of wonders ofc - many will probably not even be built in every game.
I'd also conceed your earlier point about the econ legacies - these could be scaled slightly depending on the number of players - but they are probably a bit easy anyway. (I'm a rabid buyer of merchants though.)
 
This sounds good, but what do you suggest for age progress then? If someone reaches 7, the age gains progress. If no one reaches 7 at 100%, the most advanced gets legacy points but there is no further age progress? Or would you eliminate the number 7 and the age progress from reaching it completely?
 
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