CIV103: The Espionage Economy at Prince Level

[xanadux]

Cool, so if you broke down the game, you would see something like:

1) Early period: preparing for generating Great Spies with appropriate tech path, buildings, etc. Using quick expansion to establish land and so forth.
2) Mid period (this would be a very extended period IMO): start leveraging EPs to steal techs, lowering slider and devoting money & resources to conquest and military.
3) Late period: transition to more traditional SE or CE hybrid, leveraging the established EPs generated from buildings, wonders, and settled GSpies, to backfill or fill other research lines while beeline to techs consistent with victory condition chosen (Space techs, etc.). You have a leveraged, highly promoted military to defend or continue conquest.

That makes good sense to me. Really improves value of Imperialistic trait and leverages both the general and settler bonus.

Actually, the post you quoted described quite the opposite. I was responding to someone who was having problem with starting with Espionage in the late game.

What I was trying to describe was a transition from a Representation/beaker based Specialist Economy to a later game (after Republic, Democracy, and Communism) addition of Espionage with the EP buildings to supplement the SE with stolen techs.

 

[idiot_savant]

I was connecting the various posts in an odd way -- ADHD and all ... Sorry I got excited when I saw a way to leverage the Imperliastic trait as I don't use it much.

So, you wouldn't do this kind of transition in an EE then? You would keep producing Great Spies, etc., in late game? I'm going to test it in some offline games, but was curious as to whether that was a good, albeit very general summary.

 

[Daedal]

I've actually found it quite useful with a Settled Specialist Economy to transition to a hybrid SE/EE. After Communism, even without any Great Spies for Scotland Yard, you get 40 EPs for every city with Espionage slider at 0 after building the EP buildings. That's enough to strongly supplement normal research and keep even or surpass the AIs.

Supposing we have a nice round 15 cities, that's 600 EP/turn. Supposing we've got 6 neighbors, that's 100 EP/neighbor/turn. I need to devote EP to everyone, otherwise I'll get slammed with espionage myself or at best I'll have an incomplete picture of the world. After communism, even backfill techs seem to cost several thousand EP each. I don't have access to Civ 4 here to check so I hope that's not exaggerated. So I'll assume 2000 for a backfill tech.

Because I haven't been running EE the entire game, my EP output has been relatively low prior to modern espionage buildings being built. That not only increases how much I have to pay for techs, but it increases my chance that a spy will fail his mission and that he'll get caught at some point before even attempting that mission - a triple whammy! This is why I think you either have to go totally EE or no EE.

Then there's the hammer cost. I need to fill 15 cities with espionage buildings... yes even that junk tundra city I used to grab two furs. And I need to build a bunch of spies. And I need to sacrifice years of my life as I watch spy after spy get caught before sitting still for 5 turns or get caught while attempting a tech mission at 70%. All this for a backfill tech I could spend a couple turns researching?

I think an all-out EE is a great idea and I've been experimenting with it offline so don't get me wrong, I think it can be powerful if you build your strategy entirely around it. But the hybrid version just seems like more trouble than it's worth. I'll have to see a non-EE SE to EE late transition walkthrough to be convinced otherwise.

 

[Refar]

I'll have to see a non-EE SE to EE late transition walkthrough to be convinced otherwise.

I have done the transition. The above mentioned game where i stole from Jao. It was only on Monarch thou.

My economy broken down. Well to be honest: i did not have any real economy in the first place - i was making war. I was early medieaval: No guilds, no paper, eta 50 turns to optics (normal speed) - you get the picture. My neighbours where stoneage, because of the war. While the other continent made liberalism.

So no specialists, no mature cottages. Just two GS i popped from the Great Wall and a couple of Courthoses. I also had a big pile of captured wonders, which prevented me from making any more Great Spy until very late in the game - the pool was just to polluted.

Using EP from those 2 early GSpy's (1 Settled + Scotland Yard on top of him) and the little bit i got from Courthouses i stolen some key techs leading to Constitution (for Jails) first, then backfilled some economic techs, then started to chew on they tech lead.

By the time they got Radio i was in the position to steal every tech on the turn they were done researching it.

 

[cripp7]

what are the key wonders that you're going to build in order not to pollute the spy GP pool? I know the Kremlin being one of them, plus the Great Wall. I'm going to try my own spy game on noble, I've tried the last save here, but I am not that good on Prince or continents

 

[xanadux]

what are the key wonders that you're going to build in order not to pollute the spy GP pool? I know the Kremlin being one of them, plus the Great Wall. I'm going to try my own spy game on noble, I've tried the last save here, but I am not that good on Prince or continents

The key is really not building many wonders early and mid game. The Great Wall is the only really key wonder, and even it can be skipped if there are more important things to build at the time. Even without the Great Wall, getting some relatively quick Great Spies isn't too hard by beelining Code of Laws and running a spy in 2 or 3 cities.

Aside from the Great Wall, the only wonders I've built in this game are The Moai statues and Hanging Gardens in Coimbra. Getting a Great Engineer would pretty much guarantee getting the Kremlin (and also allow building it in a high food/low production city)which is very nice, allowing 3 spy specialists, but again not a critical wonder, as just building the EP buildings allows quite a few specialists.

Once all the commerce cities have Scotland Yard, generating more Great Spies, while helpful, is not as important, and building any wonder you want should be fine at this point.

I made a mistake when I built the Jewish shrine in the capital. It had been so long since I had built a shrine that I had forgotten they come with 1 Great Prophet point. Just settling the prophet I got would have been better.

 

[Refar]

If you think you need more wonders spread them between cities. I like the Oracle to pop COL just after Writing for faster Courthouses (As you dont need libraries in Full spy, you can build Courts instead). What i do is build (Chop) the Oracle in a small city - settled near Marble if awaiable. The 2 GPP from Oracle will never overtake the GW + Spy from Courthose city.

 

[xanadux]

Round 5 Turns 185-236 1250AD-1630AD

End of Round 5 Save

Turn 185 I adjust the espionage slider, putting Pacal at 27, Willem and Churchill (on whom I have over 1000 Eps each) I set at 0, and everyone else at 1, getting 136 EP/turn on Pacal, and 5 on everyone else. At the moment, Lisbon is building a market, Oporto and Coimbra spies, Guimaraes an archer and will next turn switch to spies. The new cities of Evora and Lagos are building courthouses. Once I have built the spies, and they are in place, I should have plenty of military to take down Willem.

Turn 188 The Apostolic Palace is built by Pacal who is Buddhist.

Turn 189 Lisbon completes market and begins working on catapults. It will build 2 then work on a few more war elephants. Coimbra switches to a Jewish Missionary. It will build 2 then start on more carracks. I want to get Judaism spread to Pacal. I want to get a large army of spies and carracks. Willem destroys an ivory camp.

Turn 190 Willem founds Middelburg, 2 squares East of the ruins of The Hague. Evora finishes courthouse and starts on forge.

Turn 191 Judaism Finally spreads to Evora,

Turn 192 Shaka comes demanding Aesthetics. I see no harm in giving it to him. This gives me an immediate +4 attitude modifier with him and he is now Pleased. He is willing to go to war with Sitting Bull, Sury, or Pacal, but I don’t have enough to give him. I send my spies in to Amsterdam.

Turn 194 Shaka declares war on Sitting Bull.

Turn 195 I check the tech screen and notice that while Shaka and Pacal both have Engineering, Sury does not yet have machinery and is willing to trade feudalism. So I trade Machinery and Compass to Sury for Feudalism and 40 gold. I then trade Compass to everyone but Sitting Bull and Willem for cash, getting between 40 and 70 gold each time. I did this of course for the gold, but also to keep my relations up with the other continent. I want to be able to have open borders to spread Judaism around, and also be able to trade resources once Astronomy comes around. I hope to have a monopoly on spices, ivory, and furs, all of which I can have 3 or more surplus of. There is also marble up in the icy wasteland which I could claim just for trading.


Turn 196 Peace Treaty with Willem expires. Time to invade again. I send an army of 6 elephants, 6 axes, 7 catapults, and 2 crossbows in, capturing 2 workers. Willem has only about 15 units total, a mix of swords, axes, cats, and archers, with all cities but Rotterdam, the ice city NE of Oporto having only 2 or 3 units. He has been rallying his small army in Rotterdam, with about 2 swords, 3 axes, and 2 cats. I keep a strong force in Oporto just in case.

Turn 198 Evora finishes forge and starts on market. I have 2 carracks headed to Pacal’s lands, one with 2 missionaries, the other with a missionary and a sentry chariot which I intend to scout the continent with after getting open borders. Speaking of which, I sign open borders treaties with Sury, Pacal, and Shaka. I avoid Sitting Bull because he is surely Shaka’s worst enemy, and Shaka is the one I want to be most friendly with, as I see him as the easiest to bribe if I want a war started. I attack Middleburg, dropping the 20% defenses with 3 cats, then attacking with a CR3 axe, a CR2 axe and a Combat3 elephant, winning all 3 battles. I raze it and move towards Amsterdam. I sign open borders with Churchill.

Turn 199 Islam founded by Pacal. Sitting Bull and Shaka make peace. Lagos completes courthouse and starts on market.

Turn 200 My carracks arrive at Pacal’s lands with missionaries and a chariot. I start building colosseums in core cities in case needed for war weariness.

Turn 201 Spread Judaism to Mayopan.

Turn 202 Evora completes market and starts on walls. A great spy is born in Lisbon and moves to settle in Oporto. I capture Amsterdam, defended by only 4 units losing only a catapult. I used a spy to drop defenses. I start on a granary. Amsterdam comes complete with lighthouse, forge, colosseum, and Hindu Shrine. I need to at least take Utrecht during this war to take the culture pressure off of Amsterdam.

Turn 203 Build SY in Oporto, raising my EP 170 to 213. Willem sends a force of a sword, axe, cat, and spear towards Oporto. Yay more Great Wall GG points.

Turn 204 I destroy Willem’s little expedition, losing an axe. I have a carrack with a chariot and missionary heading to Churchill, and am building carracks in Lisbon and Coimbra to start carrying spies to Mayan lands.

Turn 205 I send a force of 3 elephants, 5 axes, and 2 cats from Amsterdam towards Utrecht. I start building a settler in Coimbra for an island just to the west that has stone, horses, and fish. I don’t have fish yet, and the stone will help with walls and castles.

Turn 206 I spread Judaism to the English city of Canterbury.

Turn 207 I spread Judaism to the Zulu city of Ndondakusuka. I’ve begun sending carrack’s of spies across the ocean to Pacal. Once the first 8 get there, I will send them in.

Turn 208 I steal Literature for 95 Eps and Engineering for 471 Eps from Willem. He just finished Engineering last round. It looks like Engineering would have cost me 716 beakers if I had researched it. Once I get the stone city hooked up, I will start on castles. I get the horse whisperer quest, tasked with building 7 stables. Not one to turn my back on a quest, I change builds to stables in all cities. I capture and keep Utrecht. It is in a good enough spot. It starts on a lighthouse. I lose a cat and an axe. The city had only a sword and an archer. I decide to go ahead and send my troops on to Nijmegen to take culture pressure off Utrecht.

Turn 209 I spread Judaism to Sury’s city of PreRup. I found Braga on Stone Horse Island. It starts on a stables.

Turn 210 I’m thinking of spamming Missionaries over to Shaka to get him to convert. Pacal and Sury are teching quite fast, and I wouldn’t mind slowing them down a bit with a war. A screenshot of my supply line of carracks:

Spoiler :

All 7 carracks you see are carrying 2 spies.

Turn 211 Stone is quarried, so I can start building castles after the stables are done. Amsterdam finishes granary and starts on stables. Braga switches to granary. Shaka finishes yet another war with Sitting Bull.

Turn 212 Njimegen razed with no losses. It had only an axe and 2 archers. I am starting to build castles. For a baseline, Eps now at 222/turn at 60%. I also kill a sword and a spear just outside Amsterdam for another 24 GGP. Then I get peace with Willem to stop the war weariness (at about 3-4 in my big cities right now) and get 80 gold plus 1 gpt for it. A great general is born in Lisbon. Now that I have the health resources from Amsterdam, I go through all my cities and make sure tiles are assigned correctly, also hiring a spy in Coimbra and Oporto. I settle the great general in Coimbra. I will soon steal Civil Service and can start chain irrigating which will be some help to many of my cities.

Turn 214 I move 8 spies into Mayapan. 4 more will arrive next turn. Willem has several triremes hanging out near Amsterdam. I am sending my less experienced carrack there after dropping off the spies, while the level 3 carracks (which I have promoted to nav1) will continue moving spies. I don’t want Amsterdam’s fishing boats pillaged, and it should be worth some more GGPs.

Turn 215 Amsterdam finishes stable and starts on courthouse. Horse Whisperer quest completed. I choose +1 food for stables. I hadn’t done this quest before, and am pleased by the outcome. +1 food for all stables is pretty sweet.

Turn 216 I finish a settler in Coimbra that I built to claim the marble. I should at least be able to trade it.

Turn 217 I’ve finished scouting England with my chariot. The continent has several useful resources that I don’t have: silver, gems, incense, and wheat. Screenshot of England:

Spoiler :

Turn 218 I now have 15 spies in Mayapan. Most castles are complete, and Espionage is up to 290/turn. Taking out the EPs I got when Amsterdam came out of revolt and some city growth, building 4 castles has netted me about 50 EP/turn. I have to turn the slider down as I have been running at about a 50 gold deficit for perhaps 20 turns, fueled by trade and conquest money. Now making 211/turn at 40% and –1 gold. Soon guilds for markets and switching to either vassalage or Bureaucracy will help.

Turn 219 I found Leiria to claim the marble in the icy waste. It starts on a lighthouse.

Turn 220 I finish Heroic Epic in Lisbon. I don’t like the Great Artist pollution, but I think the benefits of the HE in my best military city are well worth it. Time to start thieving from Pacal. I have over 6000 Eps on him. This turn:

Civil Service: 547
Astronomy: 1158
Theology: 289
Drama: 173
Paper: 347
Divine Right: 694
Philosophy: 463

All successful, all survive. I switch civics to vassalage and theocracy. This saves me about 15 gpt and gives me +4 exp to all units which I plan on building a lot of. I could have stolen more techs, but that’s all my spies that have been sitting for 5 turns.

Lisbon and Coimbra are building Trebuchets. Most other cities are building spies. I can now build some nav2 galleys in Lisbon which I will start after the next trebuchet.

With all the new techs, I go looking around for deals. Especially since I have astronomy for oceanic trade. Even with 6 techs available to trade, Shaka still won’t declare on Pacal.

But he is willing to give me pigs, dyes, gold, and sugar for rice, ivory, and spices. A bit odd of him to be so generous. Sury gives me deer and 16 gpt for rice and spices. Another excellent deal. Pacal gives me 10 gpt for cows. Although I foresee war soon, I see no reason not to give Churchill my last spare rice for 8 gpt.

Turn 221 Anarchy over. I am now back to 60% espionage, 341/turn and still making 14 gpt. I steal Music from Pacal for 360, the last tech he has on me. I still have 2400 Eps on him, and so switch my espionage weighting to 30 on Sury and 1 on Sitting Bull and Shaka. I send my spies in Mayan lands to the Khmer city I converted. By the time they get there and sit for 5 turns, I will have enough Eps to steal a great deal. Now that I am no longer in OR, I start on a Monastery in Coimbra.

Turn 222 Pacal comes and gives me 160 gold to trade world maps (after he offered a straight up trade of maps, and I asked ‘what will make this deal work’).

Turn 228 I took a break after trading with Pacal on turn 222, and just remembered to sell my map to everyone else (except Sitting Bull). I have Coimbra and Lisbon working on building macemen. I notice that Pacal is researching Military Science, so I send a few spies to Mayapan again. 4 carracks arrive for defense of Amsterdam, so I am ready to finally wipe out Willem, and start moving troops into position for war next turn.

Turn 229 I spread Judaism to kwaDukuza. I also attack Willem with my remaining force from last war reinforced by a couple trebuchet. He only has 4 or 5 small cities defended by 2 units each as far as I can see. All his cities are in the icy waste except for yet another city he has founded near The Hague’s ruins. Once again, it is not in the right place (missing the cows), and will have to be razed. This time, I will settle there.

Turn 230 Leiden razed with no losses. It had only a longbow and an axe.

Turn 231 Rotterdam razed with no losses. It had 2 archers, an axe and a catapult for defense.

Turn 234 Maastricht captured without loss. I keep it as it has whales and enough coast to support its upkeep.

Turn 236 Shaka declares war on Sitting Bull again. Delft razed with no losses and Willem is no more.

Time to steal from Sury. Starting the turn I have about 5200 Eps on him.

Guilds: 579
Nationalism: 1042
Printing Press: 926
Banking: 405

That is every tech he had. Next turn I can steal Military Tradition from Pacal for about 1000. I’m going to end the round here. I’ve now unlocked the Mercantilism and Nationhood Civics, and can build grocers and banks. I can also build knights now, and as soon as someone researches gunpowder, cuirassiers.

The Espionage screen:

Spoiler :

And the tech screen:

Spoiler :

Like I said, I'll have Military Tradition next turn, and be the tech leader. After that I will still have over 1000 EPs on both Churchill and Pacal, and 2500 on Sury. Comments soon, possibly more screenshots.

 

[xanadux]

I'm Sis style now, with links to each round in the initial post.

 

[xanadux]

Some comments:

At this point, a comfortable position has been reached ... home continent secured, a large navy, full tech parity (and technically the tech lead), large, well developed cities with good production and commerce.

I have a good bit of EPs stored up, and plenty of spies to steal techs as Pacal and Sury research them. Now that I have guilds and banking, I can move into another phase of an EE ... gold production and preparation to have a massive, highly promoted gunpowder era army. My plan right now is to build grocers and banks immediately in all cities with decent commerce. The Espionage slider will be dropped, and I will start saving gold for upgrades, and possibly eventually for rush buying with Universal Sufferage. Once grocers and banks are built, Lisbon will build macemen continuously. Even if I switch from Vassalage to Nationhood, Lisbon will be able to produce CR3 macemen. They will be stockpiled until someone researches Military Science and Gunpowder, and then upgraded to Grenadiers. If it looks likely riflery is soon to come, some or all may be saved to be promoted to riflemen.

In the long-term, I look to take over England, especially to secure the sources of silver and gems which will give me 4 happy in each city. After that, it should be easy to get a foothold on the other island by attacking Sitting Bull, as long as Shaka doesn't vassalize him first.

I intend to build Jewish Missionaries as quickly as possible in the hopes of converting Shaka, and hopefully at some point get him into a war with either Pacal or Sury.

Since I have pretty much stolen all the techs, I will probably take my spies out of the foreign cities and let them sit offshore in my ships. This way I won't lose any. Then, once Sury or Pacal is 5 turns from researching something I want, send them back in.

 

[Killroyan]

Impressive steals Xanadux. Get a load of SP on enemies and steal about 5 major techs each time without breaking a sweat. No way you could ever tech that fast. Spying pays off apparantly. Keep it going.

 

[Daedal]

Looks good. Now that you've secured your global espionage net it seems like the game's already won.

Something worth noting about the overall strategy is that your windows of opportunity seem smaller than in a CE/SE game and you have to leverage your few advantages more carefully and forcefully. In other words, if you're going for a conquest/domination, you can't happily tech to an advantage and crush your opponents with advanced military units. You have to plan ahead of time to upgrade CR3 maces so that the upgrades make the difference. And even then you have to attack fairly quickly before the next military tech is discovered by the AI or before the AI makes so many defenders that even your CR3 grenadiers are no longer sufficient to win the day because you can't make any more once you decide to steal the appropriate tech. At prince level that might not be such a big deal, but have you tried offline EE games to see if that makes a difference at higher levels? I'm guessing the AI's production and science bonus is going to make those windows of opportunity that much smaller.

 

[xanadux]

Looks good. Now that you've secured your global espionage net it seems like the game's already won.

Something worth noting about the overall strategy is that your windows of opportunity seem smaller than in a CE/SE game and you have to leverage your few advantages more carefully and forcefully. In other words, if you're going for a conquest/domination, you can't happily tech to an advantage and crush your opponents with advanced military units. You have to plan ahead of time to upgrade CR3 maces so that the upgrades make the difference. And even then you have to attack fairly quickly before the next military tech is discovered by the AI or before the AI makes so many defenders that even your CR3 grenadiers are no longer sufficient to win the day because you can't make any more once you decide to steal the appropriate tech. At prince level that might not be such a big deal, but have you tried offline EE games to see if that makes a difference at higher levels? I'm guessing the AI's production and science bonus is going to make those windows of opportunity that much smaller.

I've played this sort of game on Emperor level, and it works, but you are right, the window of opportunity is more delicate than with other economies, and shorter on higher levels. An EE isn't necessarily the right way to go for any and all games. I usually play on Emperor, and probably win half the time. The espionage games I have played on Emperor don't seem to make it noticeably easier or harder to play. It's just another option for the economy, and can be a fun way to play.

Upgrades are expensive, but they are extremely powerful. Even with a fairly big tech lead, it takes time to build an army of those shiny new units. Upgrades allow instantly fielding a large modern army given enough cash. The next round will show preparation for taking advantage of the window of opportunity that arises from getting Grenadiers or Riflemen. A large army of macemen will be built, and cash reserves saved up for this, in addition to sufficient galleons for transport.

I don't know if I mentioned it in the walkthrough, but I built a few 10 exp galleons in Lisbon. I upgraded them to nav2 which gave them 7 movement, and they were able to make a round trip to the other continent in only 5 turns. By the end of the round, 2 galleons were all that were necessary to transport spies and missionaries.

Also, Sury as usual is trying for cultural victory, and at the end of the round was quickly spreading Judaism to his cities. The shrine I built is looking better than I first thought, and Lisbon should become a nice Wall Street city.

 

[UncleJJ]

I looked at the latest savegame and it is an interesting situation you have here. If you are going to attack Churchill remember he has 13 cities and that will give high overseas maintenance costs, so you might have to make a colony. A alternative way to tackle that island might be to take several cities (say 5 cities) that you do not particularly want to keep and make them into a colony. Then attack again and take the 3 or 4 cities, including London that you do want to keep and hopefully vassalise Churchil with the remaining 5 cities. That would let you have your cake and eat it ... without paying through the nose

If you are going to attack England it would be a good idea to raise the EP against him so you can see into his cities and pick your targets carefully. It seems to me that the important thing if you want to steal techs efficiently is the total EPs you have spent and it doesn't matter who you spent them against, as long as you have enough to finance the cost of the tech you want to steal in EPs. On the otherhand if you want to take over another civ it is important to spend against that civ so you can see into his cities with the Investigate City passive espionage ability. at present you have 1151 EPs against Churchil and you need 2406 to investigate London. I think a Jewish missionary should visit London fairly urgently and some of the other large English cities if you can afford the time and hammers. That is more urgent that churning out CR3 maces.

Lisbon is a city of contradictions It has a valuable shrine, Scotland Yard and settled Military Instructors So it really needs to have some cottages to make the most of the Scotland Yard and to build Jails, Security Agency etc when these techs are available, it needs grocer, bank and Wall Street to make the most of the gold and high gold slider settings, and it needs to produce loads of military units to make use of the settled GGs. That's a lot of things to do... I wonder if the 2 workshops and a couple of the forests should be turned into cottages, it is a bit late to start cottages, but this is going to be an espionage and gold hot spot and commerce is vital to make the most of the multipliers.

I like your heavy upgrade strategy for macemen to grenadiers or riflemen, but you need plenty of trebuchets to lower defences (if the spy fails) and later for upgrade to cannons. I've found that once you have cannons or artillery that it only takes one round of bombarding from 3 or 4 units to lower the cultural defences (since walls and castles don't count) That means that spies are not needed in your SoD anymore.

Another idea to speed up conquest (and this time make use of spies and city revolts) would be to build some highly promoted knights for upgrade to cuirassiers or cavalry instead of macemen to grenadiers. That would allow you to have a fast moving attack force able to take a weak defended city quickly. England is on a huge island and it will take ages to conquer moving at one tile per turn. Coastal cities can be sped up by using galleons to land next to the city but many cities are far inland. I would have a slower moving main army and a flying column able to quickly exploit a weakness.

 

[ICNP]

Yeah while I admire how instructional this game is I find Lisbon to a rather obscure city. Isn't the idea to specialize cities? I realize the Shrine was unexpected but I guess you can only look so far ahead. If only the first SY was built in your second city then you could have more easily specialized. But otherwise thankyou for your teachings on the EE although I still see it as a little too obscure for my cottage loving tastes.