CIV103: The Espionage Economy at Prince Level

[xanadux]

Gilligan is good for an EE. His traits are helpful if not ideal, and the super early, cheap Ziggurat is great. Easier to get an early Great Spy with Gil than building the Great Wall with most others. Research priesthood, build a Zig, and 34 turns later, normal speed, you have your first Scotland Yard.

 

[futurehermit]

Gilligan is good for an EE

 

[absimiliard]

Gee thanks Xanadux. Now you've totally ruined that leader for me.

Forever more I'm gonna see him and be looking for the Skipper, Marianne, and Ginger. (Not to mention the Professor, Mr. Howell and his wife)

So who would the rest be anyway? Kathy as Ginger and Izzy as Marianne? Bismark as Mr. Howell?

Gahhhh! I came here for espionage discussion. Not the complete derailing of my entire Civ4 world-view!

Curse you Xanadux! Curse you!

*shakes fist at the sky*

-abs

 

[obsolete]

I'm not sure why you think a EE can outrun a traditional Beaker system. I've seen coders even mention that spy points when run parrallel to beakers/gold just don't have the same mods to compete.

Anyhow, as a test I set up a deity map last night, normal speed.

I ended up getting boxed in right from the start on a continent with only Ragnar and Monte. Being forked between them, I decided to side with the lesser of the two evils, since Monte is an idiot.

I made it till almost 800 AD at which point Monte sent in 5 stacks of 20 units each and just came marching in.

Despite being please with Ragnar and even having a couple techs higher than him to trade, he refused to do anything (and money was even of a different religion!)

This spy ecconomy was simply a horrible choice there.


Anyhow, I'll be looking forward to how this pans out for you in an Immortal game, but it has so many drawbacks I don't see it being +ev.

 

[qwertz]

courhouse + security bureau + intelligence arency + nationalhood (=+100%) ≈library + university + obervatory + laboratory (+100%)

spy specialist > scientist specialist

Great spy >>> Great scientist

You don't get monastery or FR bonuses, but the discards for the mission costs easily make up for it.


=>EE gets you more techs out of your than a standard beaker economy

at least in theory

 

[madscientist]

courhouse + security bureau + intelligence arency + nationalhood (=+100%) ≈library + university + obervatory + laboratory (+100%)

spy specialist > scientist specialist

Great spy >>> Great scientist

You don't get monastery or FR bonuses, but the discards for the mission costs easily make up for it.


=>EE gets you more techs out of your than a standard beaker economy

at least in theory

You are rgiht but htere is one thing about the EE that has bothered me. You are always playing from a position of being behind in tech (even ideally a short one) rather than playing from a position of strength and leading tech.

 

[qwertz]

You are rgiht but htere is one thing about the EE that has bothered me. You are always playing from a position of being behind in tech (even ideally a short one) rather than playing from a position of strength and leading tech.

right, but as you aren't going to get a big tech lead at deity anyway it can help you to at least better keep up with the AIs

 

[madscientist]

right, but as you aren't going to get a big tech lead at deity anyway it can help you to at least better keep up with the AIs

This is true. I am a MOnarch level player so I am accustomed to slower teching versus the AI but getting a big edge late in the game.

 

[idiot_savant]

You are rgiht but htere is one thing about the EE that has bothered me. You are always playing from a position of being behind in tech (even ideally a short one) rather than playing from a position of strength and leading tech.

The EE (based on what I've seen and tested so far) really lends itself to particular types of victories, map types, etc. I don't see you winning a space race very easily with at higher levels for example. It wouldn't be my first choice if my neighbors were Rags and Monty either. I'm still very interested and doing testing with it myself, but there are clearly starts/neighbors/etc. where it is just plain the wrong choice. The EE lacks the facile application of the CE and SE models.

I don't think you have to be as hard-core (turning off research, etc.) about the EE application as Xanadux is playing here either. Yes, that changes things... but it is a little like playing the SE without a couple of cottage or merchant cities. It is purer, but probably not most optimal.

 

[xanadux]

First, an update. I hope to play and post the next round sometime tonight.

Obsolete has voice concerns that the EE cannot hold up to a normal beaker economy. I don't have enough experience with the EE to really comment on this, but I do think that it is a strong game, and feasible at Emperor level. I'm not to the point yet of playing Immortal much, so I can't comment on that.

The EE gains a lot of strength mid/late game. After Communism, after building all the Espionage buildings, each city can have 20 base EPs from buildings plus a 100% bonus to EPs. Nationhood can add an additional 25% which may or may not be better than Vassalage or Bureaucracy.

I think what really gets the EE going though, is producing Great Spies for Scotland Yards. With a philisophical leader, by limiting non Spy GPP early, it doesn't take long to make a good amount of Great Spies. On normal speed, after CoL, run a single spy specialist in 3 cities, and in 50 turns, you will have 3 Great Spies (and well on the way to a 4th), and therefore 3 Scotland Yards.

Scotland Yard is a huge benefit. After Communism, one can easily expect to have 5 or more cities getting a 200% bonus to EPs plus 20 base EPs just from the buildings. This is a big difference from a beaker economy that will typically have one city with a 225% science bonus from library, university, academy, observatory, and Oxford. Other cities will be limited to 125% from Library, University, Observatory and Academy. With several good commerce cities, you can make a lot more EPs than you can beakers.

EPs are not the same in each game though. Sometimes, you have a tech-fiend with a city very near your capital that you can milk for techs for very few EPs. Sometimes the tech leader is far away giving a significant penalty. But having a religion's holy city, and spreading that religion to the target city gives a 40% decrease in EP spending. Whether you found a religion, or capture a holy city, this bonus is huge and worth pursuing.

Another benefit of the EE is fielding a huge army. Commerce tends to go to only gold and EPs, occassionally some to Culture during war to combat war weariness. Hammers do not have to be spent on libraries, universities, and observatories. Instead, they go to military. Big cities will generally always build markets and grocers just for the happy and health bonuses. These bonuses tend to go further in an EE because the % of commerce going to gold is generally higher than in beaker oriented games for 2 reasons. The first is that you tend to have a larger standing army, needing more gold for support, the second is that often you don't need all the EPs you could produce, and so store your commerce up in gold.

Because of generally having a huge gold surplus mid-game, an EE game allows building large armies of CR maces that are just waiting for an AI to research the techs for them to promote to Grenadiers or Riflemen. One can easily have 4000 gold saved up when the AI eventually gets Military Science, and promote 20 or so CR2 and CR3 maces to Grenadiers. Large #s plus superior promotions will roll over the AI that might have a slight tech lead.

Again, I am not saying the EE game is superior, just that it does have definite possibilities for a very strong and even superior game. It is not for every map or every situation. But in ideal cases, I think it has the possibility to be the strongest option, even at Immortal level and probably Deity as well.

 

[madscientist]

First, an update. I hope to play and post the next round sometime tonight.

Obsolete has voice concerns that the EE cannot hold up to a normal beaker economy. I don't have enough experience with the EE to really comment on this, but I do think that it is a strong game, and feasible at Emperor level. I'm not to the point yet of playing Immortal much, so I can't comment on that.

The EE gains a lot of strength mid/late game. After Communism, after building all the Espionage buildings, each city can have 20 base EPs from buildings plus a 100% bonus to EPs. Nationhood can add an additional 25% which may or may not be better than Vassalage or Bureaucracy.

I think what really gets the EE going though, is producing Great Spies for Scotland Yards. With a philisophical leader, by limiting non Spy GPP early, it doesn't take long to make a good amount of Great Spies. On normal speed, after CoL, run a single spy specialist in 3 cities, and in 50 turns, you will have 3 Great Spies (and well on the way to a 4th), and therefore 3 Scotland Yards.

Scotland Yard is a huge benefit. After Communism, one can easily expect to have 5 or more cities getting a 200% bonus to EPs plus 20 base EPs just from the buildings. This is a big difference from a beaker economy that will typically have one city with a 225% science bonus from library, university, academy, observatory, and Oxford. Other cities will be limited to 125% from Library, University, Observatory and Academy. With several good commerce cities, you can make a lot more EPs than you can beakers.

EPs are not the same in each game though. Sometimes, you have a tech-fiend with a city very near your capital that you can milk for techs for very few EPs. Sometimes the tech leader is far away giving a significant penalty. But having a religion's holy city, and spreading that religion to the target city gives a 40% decrease in EP spending. Whether you found a religion, or capture a holy city, this bonus is huge and worth pursuing.

Another benefit of the EE is fielding a huge army. Commerce tends to go to only gold and EPs, occassionally some to Culture during war to combat war weariness. Hammers do not have to be spent on libraries, universities, and observatories. Instead, they go to military. Big cities will generally always build markets and grocers just for the happy and health bonuses. These bonuses tend to go further in an EE because the % of commerce going to gold is generally higher than in beaker oriented games for 2 reasons. The first is that you tend to have a larger standing army, needing more gold for support, the second is that often you don't need all the EPs you could produce, and so store your commerce up in gold.

Because of generally having a huge gold surplus mid-game, an EE game allows building large armies of CR maces that are just waiting for an AI to research the techs for them to promote to Grenadiers or Riflemen. One can easily have 4000 gold saved up when the AI eventually gets Military Science, and promote 20 or so CR2 and CR3 maces to Grenadiers. Large #s plus superior promotions will roll over the AI that might have a slight tech lead.

Again, I am not saying the EE game is superior, just that it does have definite possibilities for a very strong and even superior game. It is not for every map or every situation. But in ideal cases, I think it has the possibility to be the strongest option, even at Immortal level and probably Deity as well.

OK, nicely put. Scottland yard with it's 100% EP versus an Academy with it's 50% beaker.

Now the 20 ep base from buildings then +100 normal buildings. Does it make more sense to Build 1 scottlands yard, settle the next great spies there, and then build the Kremlin in that city (and perhaps national park if you have numerous forrests) for a total 10 spy specialists? A so called superespionage city which would take th brunt of the EE points and free up the remainder of the empire to revert to the science slider?

Or do you need multiple scottland yards to capitalize on the EPs from the EP slider and cottages?

 

[Refar]

You can Airlift to your Vassal. You cant to a Open Boarders partner. However... There is a quite easy solution the the "how to get my spy's to the other continent" - problem....

As we all know, the AI just loves to settle crappy cities, everywehere a bit of land is left free. Let them settle a city on your Island. Just let some space somewhere in the northern tundra. They will come and grab the spot. Most likely the AI tech leader will have astro and settle first. And if someone backward settles it - well bad luck but no big problem to kich him out again.

Sure - you allowing them to take foothold in your land, but with your production power you can easily control it. Also your culture will soon box in the new city, leawing only few poor tiles for it to work... The city will take forever to build something. Probably never get to build Sec. Buero.

All you need to do after that is spread your religion the the new crappy city...

 

[madscientist]

Sure - you allowing them to take foothold in your land, but with your production power you can easily control it. Also your culture will soon box in the new city, leawing only few poor tiles for it to work... The city will take forever to build something. Probably never get to build Sec. Buero.

Probably, not still more possible than you would think. There is always the whip or the purse (US).

 

[xanadux]

Usually you can find a crappy AI city without a Security Bureau. But Refar's idea is still good because if you let them settle on your landmass, distance penalties will be small. You can prevent the whip with super-cheap poison water and foment unhappiness missions. I don't know how much the AI uses US to gold-rush buildings, but probably the Security Bureau would not be highest on its list.

 

[xanadux]

OK, nicely put. Scottland yard with it's 100% EP versus an Academy with it's 50% beaker.

Now the 20 ep base from buildings then +100 normal buildings. Does it make more sense to Build 1 scottlands yard, settle the next great spies there, and then build the Kremlin in that city (and perhaps national park if you have numerous forrests) for a total 10 spy specialists? A so called superespionage city which would take th brunt of the EE points and free up the remainder of the empire to revert to the science slider?

Or do you need multiple scottland yards to capitalize on the EPs from the EP slider and cottages?

Depends on the output of cities ... After all EP buildings and SY are built, a settled Great Spy will give 36 EP/turn. So the question is ... are there any current cities without SY with 36+ (or soon to be 36+) base EPs ...

Likely there is, because just with the EP buildings, a city gets 20 base EPs, so only needs another 16 from commerce and specialists to be advantageous to have SY compared to settling a GS.

 

[Refar]

Yes, i forgot to mention the low distance panaltie

I got this idea from Jao II (Yea, the protugese guy )... I was in big trouble - Overexpanded - Teching Optics was taking forever, my neighbours were more backward than me, so no stealing too, while the other continent had Liberlism already... I was really desperate... And then Jao came along and settled on my Land. I stolen my Way to Victory from that one city

 

[madscientist]

Depends on the output of cities ... After all EP buildings and SY are built, a settled Great Spy will give 36 EP/turn. So the question is ... are there any current cities without SY with 36+ (or soon to be 36+) base EPs ...

Likely there is, because just with the EP buildings, a city gets 20 base EPs, so only needs another 16 from commerce and specialists to be advantageous to have SY compared to settling a GS.

For a pure EE, I would agree. And I understand this game is demonstrating the EE. But some discussion on Espionage in general

However, hybrids are always a good approach. A settled GS very early can produce alot of AIs, if you get 2 a settle GS and scottland may give you enough EPs to keep the science slider up while generating enough Eps to still steal techs you are missing. The power of this approach is you can tech to a lead and backfill by stealing rather than trading techs which help the AI. I would think this would provide a big edge over the AI.

 

[Daedal]

The way espionage works seems to promote the all or nothing approach over a hybrid. I'm not saying a hybrid is impossible, just a lot less efficient. The 'espionage points spent' counter plays a huge role in reducing the cost of spy missions and reducing the chance your spies are caught. Any game where I've tried to use EP buildings only or one super-spy city to run espionage has been an exercise in frustration. I can't run enough spy points to get information and defense against my neighbors and when I do try to run missions I just lose spies and the missions cost so much it takes forever to recover.

Add to this the fact that if you're doing a hybrid of some sort you need to split your resources between science and espionage. You'll have some GSpies and some GScientists, but not as many of either as you'd like. You'll have both types of buildings to build (unless you're going the super espionage city). I've got no numbers to back this up, but personal experience has shown me to either go all in EE or forget about it completely and just generate enough points to see what neighbors are researching.

 

[xanadux]

The way espionage works seems to promote the all or nothing approach over a hybrid. I'm not saying a hybrid is impossible, just a lot less efficient. The 'espionage points spent' counter plays a huge role in reducing the cost of spy missions and reducing the chance your spies are caught. Any game where I've tried to use EP buildings only or one super-spy city to run espionage has been an exercise in frustration. I can't run enough spy points to get information and defense against my neighbors and when I do try to run missions I just lose spies and the missions cost so much it takes forever to recover.

Add to this the fact that if you're doing a hybrid of some sort you need to split your resources between science and espionage. You'll have some GSpies and some GScientists, but not as many of either as you'd like. You'll have both types of buildings to build (unless you're going the super espionage city). I've got no numbers to back this up, but personal experience has shown me to either go all in EE or forget about it completely and just generate enough points to see what neighbors are researching.

I've actually found it quite useful with a Settled Specialist Economy to transition to a hybrid SE/EE. After Communism, even without any Great Spies for Scotland Yard, you get 40 EPs for every city with Espionage slider at 0 after building the EP buildings. That's enough to strongly supplement normal research and keep even or surpass the AIs.

 

[idiot_savant]

I've actually found it quite useful with a Settled Specialist Economy to transition to a hybrid SE/EE. After Communism, even without any Great Spies for Scotland Yard, you get 40 EPs for every city with Espionage slider at 0 after building the EP buildings. That's enough to strongly supplement normal research and keep even or surpass the AIs.

Cool, so if you broke down the game, you would see something like:

1) Early period: preparing for generating Great Spies with appropriate tech path, buildings, etc. Using quick expansion to establish land and so forth.
2) Mid period (this would be a very extended period IMO): start leveraging EPs to steal techs, lowering slider and devoting money & resources to conquest and military.
3) Late period: transition to more traditional SE or CE hybrid, leveraging the established EPs generated from buildings, wonders, and settled GSpies, to backfill or fill other research lines while beeline to techs consistent with victory condition chosen (Space techs, etc.). You have a leveraged, highly promoted military to defend or continue conquest.

That makes good sense to me. Really improves value of Imperialistic trait and leverages both the general and settler bonus.