Civ7: Death to the fish-slap combat - multiple units fighting at once

[The_J]

From https://www.polygon.com/gamescom/443918/civilization-7-hands-on-preview

Shirk said the team at Firaxis internally refers to the Civilization 4/5/6 style of combat as ‘Fish Slap’, in that one unit usually runs up and slaps the other with a proverbial fish, only to run away after and end the engagement. This led to the development of Civilization 7’s ‘continuous combat’ under combat designer Brian Feldges. When units engage, they smash together and scrap on the face of the hexagon they’re situated in, and the fighting doesn’t stop until you’ve issued all of your commands. “We wanted to establish facing so that flanking would look and feel right, and when the battles are joined, you actually have battle lines fighting in your game as you’re going through and doing all of your combat,” Shirk said. “And then you end turn, and only then do they return to their paths.”

This fits very well to what we have seen in the videos so far, as you actually had the impression there was a battle field.

 

[ggalindo001]

I couldn't say it any better -- the "fish slap" mechanic. I'm not sure I fully understand the "continuous combat" concept here, but the fact it is not the same as Civ 5 and 6 is satisfying.

One thing I hope they reintroduce is the concept of collateral damage by ranged units. Old World does a great job of that, and IIRC Civ 3 had that concept in a very reasonable way with the stacks of doom.

 

[Big J Money]

The continuous combat and fish slap are just referring to the timing of the animations and combat resolutions.

In previous games, the attack animation involves a unit attacking its target for one single animation, then returning to their starting hex, then resolving the combat result (damage dealt to both sides)

In civ 7, the combat doesn't resolve immediately. The attacker and defender begin an animation that persists until the end of the combat. So you order unit 1, 2, 3 and 4 all to attack their targets. They all fight at the same time. Then after you've issued all orders, all of them resolve at the same time. What constitutes the end of the combat? I didn't see*. It could be the end of the turn, or maybe once you've given orders to all military units, or maybe each unit that is attached to a single commander. Maybe even something else.

I think it will be harder to read all of the combat text, but it's probably going to be worth it for the spectacle. I'm pretty excited about it.

Edit: Not sure how I missed this: “And then you end turn, and only then do they return to their paths.” <-- So all of the battles will resolve when you end your turn. If you have a lot of battles all over the map, I guess you won't be able to see the damage numbers for them, so I hope they have a combat log or something else to help keep track.

 

[The_J]

I think you are forgetting the option that you can let multiple units attack the same one, without the combat being resolved already.
This adds quite some more strategy to the combat.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Note also that little word "flanking", which also implies that you can have Unit A attack Unit 3 while Units B and C hit Unit 3 from the side and rear and Units D and E stop Units 1 and 2 from interfering.

Potentially, there is more coordinated tactical combat possible with this system than the 'one on one' that we have become used to.

And, frankly, it is potentially far, far more engaging than Millenia's hideous animations - it also , from the description, sounds suspiciously like ARA's combat animations, the few that I saw some time ago.

 

[Gedemon]

From https://www.polygon.com/gamescom/443918/civilization-7-hands-on-preview



This fits very well to what we have seen in the videos so far, as you actually had the impression there was a battle field.

now, if a R.E.D. mod is possible, it's going to be epic !

 

[Krikkit1]

Note also that little word "flanking", which also implies that you can have Unit A attack Unit 3 while Units B and C hit Unit 3 from the side and rear and Units D and E stop Units 1 and 2 from interfering.

Potentially, there is more coordinated tactical combat possible with this system than the 'one on one' that we have become used to.

And, frankly, it is potentially far, far more engaging than Millenia's hideous animations - it also , from the description, sounds suspiciously like ARA's combat animations, the few that I saw some time ago.

That reminds me of the game Diplomacy..... (played 1/2 a game once)... but does sound like a good thing. Simultaneous combat resolution.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

That reminds me of the game Diplomacy..... (played 1/2 a game once)... but does sound like a good thing. Simultaneous combat resolution.

Diplomacy.
One of my favorite memories from university days: 6 - 7 of us would get together every Sunday with a few cases of beer and play Diplomacy all afternoon. Later got involved in the play-by-mail Fanzine versions of the game - it was a primary gaming experience for years. Incredibly simple mechanics, incredibly complex potential game situations that could change in a heart-beat when someone decided it was the right time to Stab you in the back and break the game open.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Oh man some serious Diplomacy nostalgia. We played that to death in High School

 

[AriochIV]

A different preview said that the "continuous combat" was only cosmetic and that combat works the same way it always did.

 

[GeneralZIft]

This is the goofiest sounding article ever. So basically, the combat is exactly the same, but instead of taking turns, they just appear to be in combat through until the end of the turn.

I mean, amazing, but how awfully misleading from the article.

The only potential downside is that now there's no "hit and run" units, and no "attack more than once" melee units.

 

[uppi]

The continuous combat and fish slap are just referring to the timing of the animations and combat resolutions.

In previous games, the attack animation involves a unit attacking its target for one single animation, then returning to their starting hex, then resolving the combat result (damage dealt to both sides)

In civ 7, the combat doesn't resolve immediately. The attacker and defender begin an animation that persists until the end of the combat. So you order unit 1, 2, 3 and 4 all to attack their targets. They all fight at the same time. Then after you've issued all orders, all of them resolve at the same time. What constitutes the end of the combat? I didn't see*. It could be the end of the turn, or maybe once you've given orders to all military units, or maybe each unit that is attached to a single commander. Maybe even something else.

I think it will be harder to read all of the combat text, but it's probably going to be worth it for the spectacle. I'm pretty excited about it.

Edit: Not sure how I missed this: “And then you end turn, and only then do they return to their paths.” <-- So all of the battles will resolve when you end your turn. If you have a lot of battles all over the map, I guess you won't be able to see the damage numbers for them, so I hope they have a combat log or something else to help keep track.

I actually think that combat does resolve immediately, but the units will be shown as still engaged. I remember one scene (I think it was on the B-roll footage the streamers used), where the units started engaging and immediately the health changes appeared, but they stayed engaged. So I think it is only a visual change, the actual combat mechanics are the same as before. But you can immediately see what would be a flanking maneuver or which units have already made their attack this turn, and so on.

The only potential downside is that now there's no "hit and run" units, and no "attack more than once" melee units.

No reason they could not have a different animation for units which have the hit and run ability. With the added benefit that you would immediately see that the unit is not engaged in combat and can move again.

 

[Vandlys]

For people unaware of why it's called the Fish Slap, I'm sure it has to do with this:

 

[Vincent_lacruz]

A different preview said that the "continuous combat" was only cosmetic and that combat works the same way it always did.

It is indeed cosmetic. But in a way kind of welcomed, at least for me, because it is easier to see which unit is yet to act (except for ranged unit that don't keep firing).

 

[Lord Lakely]

And, frankly, it is potentially far, far more engaging than Millenia's hideous animations

Well to be fair, the bar for that was located at the bottom of Lake Baikal.

 

[The_J]

I actually think that combat does resolve immediately, but the units will be shown as still engaged. I remember one scene (I think it was on the B-roll footage the streamers used), where the units started engaging and immediately the health changes appeared, but they stayed engaged. So I think it is only a visual change, the actual combat mechanics are the same as before. But you can immediately see what would be a flanking maneuver or which units have already made their attack this turn, and so on.

It is indeed cosmetic. But in a way kind of welcomed, at least for me, because it is easier to see which unit is yet to act (except for ranged unit that don't keep firing).

I am not sure this goes together well.
If this works like this, then we would have instant combat resolution, which is not shown. Then you would be able to attack an already defeated unit with another one of yours. I don't think this makes much sense.

 

[Krikkit1]

I am not sure this goes together well.
If this works like this, then we would have instant combat resolution, which is not shown. Then you would be able to attack an already defeated unit with another one of yours. I don't think this makes much sense.

I think the animation may stop if the unit is destroyed

 

[Potworny]

I wonder how a unit attacked from multiple sides will look. I dream of a R.E.D mod here as well, if it happens then units on a more "realistic" scale on this map may be the prettiest things. Right now the units are huge and their icons tiny (though I know scaling will be better).

 

[AriochIV]

I wonder how a unit attacked from multiple sides will look. I dream of a R.E.D mod here as well, if it happens then units on a more "realistic" scale on this map may be the prettiest things. Right now the units are huge and their icons tiny (though I know scaling will be better).

There's an example at about 9:20 in the Gameplay Showcase video: the flanked unit visually engages with one of the flanking units, and the other just stands there.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

ARA, I believe, has simultaneous turns. Which normally means that all players simultaneously submit all the actions they want to do to for a turn, but none of them actually happen yet. Then they all happen simultaneously once the last player hits end turn. The famous board game Diplomacy does this. It's wonderfully chaotic and add a huge amount of psychology and double-guessing into a turn based game. I made my own board game heavily reliant on just that mechanic and (if I say so myself) it's pretty good. I wish it was a more common mechanic because it's a great way of adding uncertainty without randomness - a temporal fog of war in a way.

Civ7 seems to be doing much less drastic. All combats are resolved simultaneously, but only those initiated by 1 player. The players still take their turns sequentially.

Simultaneous movement, IMHO based on decades of playing board games, miniatures, and computer games, works best in computer games where the machinery can 'judge' how to play out the 'simultaneous' movement. Because, in reality, no movement is exactly simultaneous, and which movement was pre-empted by which other movement was always a source of confusion and argument (the old miniatures rules Column, Line and Square, which used written orders and simultaneous movement were notorious for this).
Diplomacy's simultaneous movement worked because there were only two possible moves, Move to X and Support Z and if there was conflict, either nobody moved or the one with 1 more Support than the other moved. Period. The emphasis of the game, of course, was not in the moves at all, but in the diplomatic maneuvering that led up to them.