Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Kwami]

I’ll take you at your word here, but there’s a pervasive notion that many pirates are simply unable to afford the games and come back and buy them as some sort of goodwill gesture later on.

This notion is bunk, by-and-large. And in any case, this type of piracy where folks supposedly back to buy later still deprives the developers and publishers of money. Games come down in price over time and go on larger and larger sales, and piracy prevented earlier purchases which generate the lion’s share of total revenue. There is also the time value of money.

These later purchases, while better than nothing, don’t absolve pirates of the initial theft.

Do you have evidence? Or is this more speculation, which you seem to frown upon?

 

[canadamufc]

I genuinely could not care less if a small minority of players pirate Civ. All that matters is that I don’t pirate and that makes me satisfied.

 

[Leyrann]

I’ll take you at your word here, but there’s a pervasive notion that many pirates are simply unable to afford the games and come back and buy them as some sort of goodwill gesture later on.

This notion is bunk, by-and-large. And in any case, this type of piracy where folks supposedly back to buy later still deprives the developers and publishers of money. Games come down in price over time and go on larger and larger sales, and piracy prevented earlier purchases which generate the lion’s share of total revenue. There is also the time value of money.

These later purchases, while better than nothing, don’t absolve pirates of the initial theft.

For me, pirating was purely a matter of 'it's easier than getting a legal copy'.

Which is also why I haven't done it since, roughly, Steam became a thing.

The only thing is that I might avoid buying games from companies that I consider to be actively evil, but that tends to result in me just not playing it at all because I don't care to go to the hassle of making everything work.

 

[Kev1916]

Star Wars Jedi: Survivor finally Force-pushes Denuvo out the airlock in patch focused on performance improvements​

12/09/24:
"
tests conducted elsewhere with different games have revealed performance gains when Denuvo is removed.

Regardless, Denuvo offers no benefits for players, and even when DRM doesn't affect a game's performance, it can create other issues, thwarting modding and even rendering games unplayable, which most notably happened in 2021 when an issue with Denuvo's servers stopped people from being able to play a significant number of games, including Guardians of the Galaxy, Football Manager 2022, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Yakuza: Like a Dragon and Persona 4 Golden. Basically: Denuvo is a pain in the arse.

 

[Kev1916]

We should repeat that, Denuvo has 0 benefit for customers.
We have plenty of evidence of it having a negative impact on games, whether it being bad implemented or not.

This 100 % , Zero Nada

 

[Dale]

We should repeat that, Denuvo has 0 benefit for customers.
We have plenty of evidence of it having a negative impact on games, whether it being bad implemented or not.

Absolutely!

There is 0 benefit for customers.
But a lot of RISK for customers. There may not be issues, but there is a huge risk that there could be issues.

For 0 benefit.

I also do not trust companies at all. I do not trust 2K or Denuvo to do something later which either:
a) increases my risk level
b) increases my compromised level

A company will never increase customer benefit. It will only ever increase it's own benefits.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

Sadly, I think the only way Denuvo will be yanked out is if the game fails to meet sales figures, and even then, there's a risk Take-Two will take the wrong lesson and just shut down Firaxis instead. For good.

 

[KayAU]

I genuinely could not care less if a small minority of players pirate Civ. All that matters is that I don’t pirate and that makes me satisfied.

This is an important point to me. While I generally agree with the perspective that piracy is wrong and that morally, people are not entitled to play a non-free game without paying for it, some kid playing a game for free which I had to pay for, for me is very low on the list of economic injustices in the world.

The fact that paying customers for years have been subject to collective punishment in the form of a series of obtrusive and ineffective anti piracy measures, has soured me on the concept of DRM in general. I have much more respect for the companies which have chosen a more customer friendly approach.

 

[KayAU]

Sadly, I think the only way Denuvo will be yanked out is if the game fails to meet sales figures, and even then, there's a risk Take-Two will take the wrong lesson and just shut down Firaxis instead. For good.

That's possible. This is a bit of a tangent, but in my opinion, people tend to overestimate the rationality of large companies, thinking they are some sort of perfect profit-seeking machines. In my experience, once a company has grown past a certain size, you are going to get lots of conflicting interests and agendas. Companies are also generally speaking authoritarian structures, which can further hinder good information from reaching decision makers.

I'll stop the tangent before I get into politics, but what I'm getting at, is that if Civ 7 sales disappoint, it is indeed possible that Take-Two will take the wrong lesson. For some people in the company, a story about Firaxis underperforming and the market for strategy games being less profitable may be more far more beneficial than one about excessive monetization and a failed DRM strategy.

The louder the backlash though, the harder it will be to hide.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

That's possible. This is a bit of a tangent, but in my opinion, people tend to overestimate the rationality of large companies, thinking they are some sort of perfect profit-seeking machines. In my experience, once a company has grown past a certain size, you are going to get lots of conflicting interests and agendas. Companies are also generally speaking authoritarian structures, which can further hinder good information from reaching decision makers.

While strife and general incompetence may be at least somewhat important factors, I do feel bringing up those factors muddies the waters of this discussion too much. Need we be reminded that the AAA industry is pretty much entirely run by techbros and financebros, both notoriously driven by pure, unadulterated greed, even moreso than most other industrialists, which should be saying something. As Commander Stephanie Sterling has said repeatedly: They don't just want to make money. They want to make all the money. This doesn't necessarily mean they're experts on how to maximize profits; it just means they hate, more than anything else, people not giving them as much money as possible

I'll stop the tangent before I get into politics, but what I'm getting at, is that if Civ 7 sales disappoint, it is indeed possible that Take-Two will take the wrong lesson. For some people in the company, a story about Firaxis underperforming and the market for strategy games being less profitable may be more far more beneficial than one about excessive monetization and a failed DRM strategy.

The louder the backlash though, the harder it will be to hide.

100% this. This is very much a case where slacktivism is going to be a lot more effective tool than "voting with your wallet"

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Sadly, I think the only way Denuvo will be yanked out is if the game fails to meet sales figures, and even then, there's a risk Take-Two will take the wrong lesson and just shut down Firaxis instead. For good.

Given the commercial success of Civ 6, that's very unlikely. If Civ 7 and Civ 8 were both flops, maybe. But even then, they'd sell the rights to make Civ games to someone else.

Anyway, Civ 7 isn't going to be a success or flop based on DRM. It'll be a success or flop based on reviews and whether civ-switching works or doesn't work for the casual gamer. Chatter in the industry about consumers voting with their wallets, though, will be noticed regardless of whether the game is a success or not.

 

[KayAU]

Anyway, Civ 7 isn't going to be a success or flop based on DRM. It'll be a success or flop based on reviews and whether civ-switching works or doesn't work for the casual gamer. Chatter in the industry about consumers voting with their wallets, though, will be noticed regardless of whether the game is a success or not.

Yeah, you may be right. I do think it adds up though. Many are wary about the civ switching. Some, like me, are wary about excessive monetization and how it may negatively impact game design. A decent number are wary about Denuvo. I think it would take a lot for Civ 7 not to be a financial success, given the sheer size of the fan base and the level of marketing. But I don't recall there being this much negative buzz before Civ 5 or 6.

Anyway, it's not really my role to worry about the finances of large companies. Perhaps Firaxis is gradually shifting away from people like me, but may find continued success with a more casual audience. I do feel very differently this time around. I used to eat up everything I could get my hands on before the release of Civ 6, and I preordered the most expensive edition. This time, I haven't been watching preview materials, and I have been unsure if I would get the game at launch. With the new worry about Denuvo, I am almost certain that I will not.

Hopefully, others will rise to fill the space. Currently I am very excited about Ara: History Untold. Hopefully, there will be more to come in the future.

 

[pokiehl]

But I don't recall there being this much negative buzz before Civ 5 or 6.

I think you’re just having some recency bias there. There is a torrent of negativity for every single civ game, even going back to Civ 4. It’s all here on this very forum for posterity. Just how the release cycles go.

Civ 4 was derided for dumbing the game down and the art style being cartoony and the game being board gamey.

Civ 5 was derided for forcing Steam, for 1UPT, etc. There were plenty of folks upset about Steam being invasive DRM, same exact comments we’re getting here about Denuvo.

Civ 6 received negative backlash for the art style primarily, but city unstacking was also controversial.

It’s just how it goes.

Perhaps Firaxis is gradually shifting away from people like me, but may find continued success with a more casual audience.

This is perhaps the most common refrain of all. Those who are skeptical of the new game always believe that what’s happening is the series is becoming “more casual”.

 

[Dale]

This is perhaps the most common refrain of all. Those who are skeptical of the new game always believe that what’s happening is the series is becoming “more casual”.

I wouldn't really say it's getting "more casual" (I know you were responding, not your words), but I do feel like the direction of Civ, and what I'm looking for in a 4x, are no longer as tightly aligned as they used to be.

 

[GIO888]

My point is, if someone like me with 9800 happy (mostly!) hours of Civ VI is going to wait for Denuvo to be dropped from Civ VII,

Well, its not a good look, is it?

 

[pokiehl]

My point is, if someone like me with 9800 happy (mostly!) hours of Civ VI is going to wait for Denuvo to be dropped from Civ VII,

Well, it’s not a good look, is it?

If someone like me who really liked Civ 6 and modded it extensively already preordered Civ 7, that’s a good look, isn’t it?

I think we’re all inclined to believe our opinions are the common, rational ones. We’ll see how Civ 7 does.

 

[KayAU]

This is perhaps the most common refrain of all. Those who are skeptical of the new game always believe that what’s happening is the series is becoming “more casual”.

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. In this case I'm not worried about the game becoming "more casual" as such, I just suspect that some of my concerns are somewhat niche, and that the wider masses may not care as much as I do about things like DRM and excessive monetization at the expense of refinement and integration of core systems.

 

[Civinator]

Do the Civ 7 competitors Ara: History Untold and Millennia have Denuvo or a similar program, too ?

​

 

[CivLuvah]

Do the Civ 7 competitors Ara: History Untold and Millennia have Denuvo or a similar program, too ?

​

For ARA, from what I know, no.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

That's possible. This is a bit of a tangent, but in my opinion, people tend to overestimate the rationality of large companies, thinking they are some sort of perfect profit-seeking machines. In my experience, once a company has grown past a certain size, you are going to get lots of conflicting interests and agendas. Companies are also generally speaking authoritarian structures, which can further hinder good information from reaching decision makers.

I'll stop the tangent before I get into politics, but what I'm getting at, is that if Civ 7 sales disappoint, it is indeed possible that Take-Two will take the wrong lesson. For some people in the company, a story about Firaxis underperforming and the market for strategy games being less profitable may be more far more beneficial than one about excessive monetization and a failed DRM strategy.

The louder the backlash though, the harder it will be to hide.

Thebackslash here is a joke vs what's going on on youtube...
Here we are actively trying to make a case for its inutility...

EVEN if it was a Ford Pinto, I'd still use it every day of my life if all it has to do is to drive around my private property to check
if there's any mushroom thiefs around... i.e. lots of INDIE devs still making games that run on Win 7 and dx11 even if the system is supposedly EOL..
You can argue its unsafe but sooner or later it will happen with win 10 also...


P.S.
The virus is Windows, not a random Trojan...