Civ7 now includes Denuvo

[Riconatic]

Not cracked games are still pirated. There are many non-cracked Denuvo games that can be played illegally without paying - probably all of them in fact.

I disagree. There are other means yes. But in scope that operation is small and distribution even smaller.

For example I would calculate loaning my steam account as piracy, but scope of that is irrelevant.

 

[Riconatic]

That's not the kind of piracy I'm talking about. I mean you can download and play a non-cracked Denuvo game for free. Its only slightly more inconvenient than pirating a cracked game. This extra inconvenience might deter some people from doing it, but how many is anyone's guess. This is as much as I can say on this forum.

I know what you mean. I still disagree. I disagee the part "slight inconvience" and I disagree the part how many of the non cracked games you can download etc.

But I do not know how we can continue this discussion meaningfully and within forum rules.

 

[Leyrann]

It's quite probable that I'm doing the typical mind fallacy here, as I am absolutely uninterested in Fifa games and consider them a weird niche, while I like Civilization and consider it to be a staple of the whole genre. We'll see in a about a year how it goes.

The thing with games like Fifa is that they have very wide mainstream appeal, by which I mean it's played a lot by people who wouldn't consider themselves gamers. That's not the case nearly as much with a game like Civilization, let alone the rest of the 4X genre.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I found it pretty stupid to add this level of protection on a game. Firaxis pay money to Denuvo, game works worse because of additional code running everywhere and I don't think it would add any single additional sale. People like us pay for games not because we can't pirate, but because we want to support developers, don't want to break the law and want to enjoy the comfort of automatic updates, saved progress, multiplayer, etc. People who don't value those things will find a way to play a game they want.

 

[Riconatic]

I found it pretty stupid to add this level of protection on a game. Firaxis pay money to Denuvo, game works worse because of additional code running everywhere and I don't think it would add any single additional sale. People like us pay for games not because we can't pirate, but because we want to support developers, don't want to break the law and want to enjoy the comfort of automatic updates, saved progress, multiplayer, etc. People who don't value those things will find a way to play a game they want.

I think statement ”game works worse because of additional code running everywhere” is false.

News outlets Reported invetigative work done to denuvo on hogwarts legacy spring 2024. I do not think the conclusion was in any shape or form ”additional code running everywhere”

Quote from toms hardware news article:
”He discovered that the amount of Denuvo code executed in-game is quite infrequent, with calls occurring once every few seconds, or during level loads.”

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think statement ”game works worse because of additional code running everywhere” is false.

News outlets Reported invetigative work done to denuvo on hogwarts legacy spring 2024. I do not think the conclusion was in any shape or form ”additional code running everywhere”

Quote from toms hardware news article:
”He discovered that the amount of Denuvo code executed in-game is quite infrequent, with calls occurring once every few seconds, or during level loads.”

I wouldn't call executing every few seconds infrequent. Moreover, I expect it do some I/O calls to read files (as it needs to check the installation somehow), so it could be quite significant hit.

 

[Bibor]

I have to ask, reading this post about Denuvo, and generally, forcing multiplayer in Civ has been irking me since the Civ3 expansion (forgot which one) that tried to shove it down my throat.

Don't get me wrong, I want Civ games to have the option of multiplayer. But can't it be "closed", in a sense "play with friends and acquitances"? I mean, the time of liberal internet that mandated "access to everything" is now long gone, and people already went back to "arranged meetings" on reddit, forums, discord etc. And it's not like Civ is a highly competitive E-sports game. None of its features are balanced or even designed with "true" mutliplayer in mind.

 

[Riconatic]

I wouldn't call executing every few seconds infrequent. Moreover, I expect it do some I/O calls to read files (as it needs to check the installation somehow), so it could be quite significant hit.

Denuvo does not need to ”check installation”. Files that are encrypted by it fail decryption when they are opened normally. If they are touched. Denuvo does not need any extra I/O reads from disk per se. But of course we can assume that Denuvo is extra code lines, so we can assume that total amount of read bytes is larger. But is that significant? No.

 

[leif erikson]

News outlets Reported invetigative work done to denuvo on hogwarts legacy spring 2024. I do not think the conclusion was in any shape or form ”additional code running everywhere”

This article linked in the quote is fairly short and worth the read.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Denuvo does not need to ”check installation”. Files that are encrypted by it fail decryption when they are opened normally. If they are touched. Denuvo does not need any extra I/O reads from disk per se. But of course we can assume that Denuvo is extra code lines, so we can assume that total amount of read bytes is larger. But is that significant? No.

1. The logic you describe happens on opening files only, it doesn't require running every couple of seconds. Also, if Denuvo would use that kind of protection only, it would be super easy to hack it by removing the loader and using decrypted files. Instead, as written in article, Denuvo uses additional checks during runtime to validate fingerprint somehow. I'm not sure whether this requires reading any files or not. I guess some hooks do it, while other don't
2. The decryption on opening files also could degrade performance greatly when files are loaded. You could check this discussion

https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/14h1jru/does_encrypting_the_system_affect_the_performance

3. The effect of such DRM on a particular game also could depend a lot on the game itself. Civilization games traditionally read and load files constantly as they have to juggle their assets. If that's the case and Denuvo constantly decrypts those files, this could cause much bigger performance degradation than in a game where files are generally loaded on level switch only

Of course, those are just theories and for me Denuvo is not a game breaker, but its use still raises some questions.

 

[Riconatic]

1. The logic you describe happens on opening files only, it doesn't require running every couple of seconds. Also, if Denuvo would use that kind of protection only, it would be super easy to hack it by removing the loader and using decrypted files. Instead, as written in article, Denuvo uses additional checks during runtime to validate fingerprint somehow. I'm not sure whether this requires reading any files or not. I guess some hooks do it, while other don't
2. The decryption on opening files also could degrade performance greatly when files are loaded. You could check this discussion

https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/14h1jru/does_encrypting_the_system_affect_the_performance

3. The effect of such DRM on a particular game also could depend a lot on the game itself. Civilization games traditionally read and load files constantly as they have to juggle their assets. If that's the case and Denuvo constantly decrypts those files, this could cause much bigger performance degradation than in a game where files are generally loaded on level switch only

Of course, those are just theories and for me Denuvo is not a game breaker, but its use still raises some questions.

1. I think we have established fact that denuvo is much more than encryption.

But in context of more I/O it just your speculation without evidence that perioidic checks increase I/O in any significant way. Linked investigation mentioned nothing such (or anything else I have come accros)

2. We can definitely agree that decryption takes time, cpu, memory etc. In todays world even the smallest of iot-devices need encryption to protect themselves, their code and their updates. But that does not mean user have to see any significant impact on normal usage scenarios. It is quite the same if game startup (or iot-device boot) takes one second longer vs every turn takes one second longer.

3. If we then start to assume that how civ 7 works and assume that it needs to juggle assets, I think we can assume that those assets are quite much assets that do not need to be denuvo protected and encrypted. For example graphics related.

 

[stealth_nsk]

1. I think we have established fact that denuvo is much more than encryption.

But in context of more I/O it just your speculation without evidence that perioidic checks increase I/O in any significant way. Linked investigation mentioned nothing such (or anything else I have come accros)

2. We can definitely agree that decryption takes time, cpu, memory etc. In todays world even the smallest of iot-devices need encryption to protect themselves, their code and their updates. But that does not mean user have to see any significant impact on normal usage scenarios. It is quite the same if game startup (or iot-device boot) takes one second longer vs every turn takes one second longer.

3. If we then start to assume that how civ 7 works and assume that it needs to juggle assets, I think we can assume that those assets are quite much assets that do not need to be denuvo protected and encrypted. For example graphics related.

I don't think we're in disagreement here, I just describe pessimistic scenarios here and you describe optimistic.

Actually, the performance was the minor point in my post. The whole idea is what it's totally unnecessary, not giving any additional sales (maybe even losing some, as this thread may indicate) while having clear disadvantage like paying money to Denuvo. Performance loss could be noticeable or not, but Denuvo surely can't improve performance, so no positives there, just a bunch of negatives.

 

[Riconatic]

I don't think we're in disagreement here, I just describe pessimistic scenarios here and you describe optimistic.

Actually, the performance was the minor point in my post. The whole idea is what it's totally unnecessary, not giving any additional sales (maybe even losing some, as this thread may indicate) while having clear disadvantage like paying money to Denuvo. Performance loss could be noticeable or not, but Denuvo surely can't improve performance, so no positives there, just a bunch of negatives.

I think we have also discussed the ”the totally unneccesary part” in this thread. Thus answering it is repeating, sorry about that. But my view of the subject:

Neccessary and unneccesary is not my decission in slightest. It is the game makers full right to make decission if it beneficial for them, if it makes more or less sales, if it is beneficial to pay denuvo. That is not my problem.

My problem on the other hand is same as always. Do I like the game, what kind of run requirements game has (online always, sometimes, ever etc), does it work on my setup, does it perform in such way that I do not get annoyed, privacy issues, etc. Denuvo anti-tamper has not ever changed anything for me in any points of consideration.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think we have also discussed the ”the totally unneccesary part” in this thread. Thus answering it is repeating, sorry about that. But my view of the subject:

Neccessary and unneccesary is not my decission in slightest. It is the game makers full right to make decission if it beneficial for them, if it makes more or less sales, if it is beneficial to pay denuvo. That is not my problem.

My problem on the other hand is same as always. Do I like the game, what kind of run requirements game has (online always, sometimes, ever etc), does it work on my setup, does it perform in such way that I do not get annoyed, privacy issues, etc. Denuvo anti-tamper has not ever changed anything for me in any points of consideration.

For me too. It wasn't about choosing to buy the game or not, just some thoughts.

 

[Leyrann]

I have to ask, reading this post about Denuvo, and generally, forcing multiplayer in Civ has been irking me since the Civ3 expansion (forgot which one) that tried to shove it down my throat.

Don't get me wrong, I want Civ games to have the option of multiplayer. But can't it be "closed", in a sense "play with friends and acquitances"? I mean, the time of liberal internet that mandated "access to everything" is now long gone, and people already went back to "arranged meetings" on reddit, forums, discord etc. And it's not like Civ is a highly competitive E-sports game. None of its features are balanced or even designed with "true" mutliplayer in mind.

I don't see what multiplayer has to do with Denuvo? Or are you mixing Denuvo Anti-Tamper (an anti-piracy measure) up with Denuvo Anti-Cheat (a multiplayer anti-cheat program)?

 

[UWHabs]

I think we have also discussed the ”the totally unneccesary part” in this thread. Thus answering it is repeating, sorry about that. But my view of the subject:

Neccessary and unneccesary is not my decission in slightest. It is the game makers full right to make decission if it beneficial for them, if it makes more or less sales, if it is beneficial to pay denuvo. That is not my problem.

My problem on the other hand is same as always. Do I like the game, what kind of run requirements game has (online always, sometimes, ever etc), does it work on my setup, does it perform in such way that I do not get annoyed, privacy issues, etc. Denuvo anti-tamper has not ever changed anything for me in any points of consideration.

Presumably someone on the business side of Firaxis/2K have decided that it's "worth it" to pay them the money. I'm assuming they're essentially using it as a hedge against some sort of catastrophic loss if, without it, some cracked version circulated heavily and caused them a mass of sales loss.

It's the low-impact version of the software. Whatever minor performance problems it may cause are going to be vastly outweighed by whatever mistakes the programmers make in coding (not checking some easy condition that means they load a file when they don't need to, stupid sorting, etc...).

And if it stops a few people from more easily pirating the game, all the better.

 

[Bibor]

I don't see what multiplayer has to do with Denuvo? Or are you mixing Denuvo Anti-Tamper (an anti-piracy measure) up with Denuvo Anti-Cheat (a multiplayer anti-cheat program)?

Aaah my bad

 

[Riconatic]

Aaah my bad

I guess you realized it already, but to clarify:
Civilization 7 does not have anti-cheat. So it does not have any issues that anti-cheat could bring:
- No additional software installed
- No additional access rights on windows
- No scanning your computer
- No privacy issues
- etc

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Presumably someone on the business side of Firaxis/2K have decided that it's "worth it" to pay them the money. I'm assuming they're essentially using it as a hedge against some sort of catastrophic loss if, without it, some cracked version circulated heavily and caused them a mass of sales loss.

Any examples of such a thing ever happening? What percentage of games ship without Denovu? 99.9%? 99.8%? What's different about Civ 7 compared to say Baldur's Gate 3, that Firaxis needs to use Denovu to protect sales, but Larian Studios didn't?

 

[Sherlock]

This is a hard pass for me. My gaming PC is very important to me, I will not allow companies to put malware on it.