Civics Improvements Suggestions

[PPQ_Purple]

You can't ever use events for something like this. There are players who insist on "No Events" and this would be too important to make part of that system.

1. Even if so, it is infinitely preferable to having the game take control away from you because the RNG decided your civic wants you to stop doing what you are doing. That is the same catastrophic level of unfun as the idiotic rock falls whole world starves due to RNG event.

The game should newer look you in the eyes and go "Hands of the keyboard kid! I'm flying from here."

2. Frankly I see absolutely no problem with players turning this off. So the no events thing is as far as I am concerned not a bug but a feature. I mean, you already allow people to disable the revolution system which is a far more core part of the whole experience. (I keep it turnbed off)

 

[Vokarya]

Talking about civics, I'm still attracted by the idea of adding the code for the "active senate", where you might be prevented to go to war or you might be forced to it by the senate. Maybe this could be applied to other civics as well (Senate, Parliament, maybe Junta and Theocracy). Of course as an option. What do you think Vokarya? Maybe it would be possible to make it work differently for different civics, meaning that for example Parliament would probably have an increased chance to force peace while for example Junta might have an increased chance to force you to go to war. And we might have some other civics overruling the senate's overruling, like for example Personality Cult overruling the Senate. Opinions?

I like it, but I can see why some players might not like it. I'd start with a % level for the democratic Government civics, then alter it for Rule civics and maybe a few others.

How many actions are you going to apply it to? If I remember previous versions correctly, Civ 1 always forced peace with Republic or Democracy. Civ 2 had a 50-50 chance of preventing a war declaration or forcing a peace treaty under Republic and 100% under Democracy.

 

[Vokarya]

I found an unused XML tag in the civic schema: <iReligionSpreadRate>. Apparently it makes religions spread X% faster.

Would this be appropriate for the Prophets civic? Prophets could really use another boost. I find its bonus to Missionaries has a hard time being meaningful.

 

[Fozman]

I found an unused XML tag in the civic schema: <iReligionSpreadRate>. Apparently it makes religions spread X% faster.

Would this be appropriate for the Prophets civic? Prophets could really use another boost. I find its bonus to Missionaries has a hard time being meaningful.

This would be extremely useful before getting Meditation, since you can't build missionaries until then (but only after building a Monastery).

 

[PPQ_Purple]

You have a point in that. Missionaries them self are easily OP because they are super cheap and it takes virtually no effort to spread your religion to anyone with whom you have right of passage. But because of that the bonus it self really does not contribute much. And as Foz said there is a period where an alternative would be really, really useful. So yea.

 

[Vokarya]

I like it. The Rule civic line seems to be shaping up well so far.

• Per my earlier post with tables outlining civic mechanics... would a specialist allowance or modifier be appropriate here? These are moderately used mechanics, both of which show up in Rule civics currently. I was thinking something like Unlimited Magistrates (probably OP) OR a small boost to Magistrates in the form of another per specialist or a (+1 to +3) per specialist.
• In the same vein, a building modifier could also be used. +1 or +1 for Hall buildings or some other building(s) of choice.
• Or... How about a small increase in domestic connections output (commerce thrives with Suffrage).
• Finally... + OR + nationwide; these are very common mechanics within the Rule civic line.

I'm combing the XML for ideas. Both Democracy and President need better mechanics. I don't like Democracy's capital boost and I'm still looking for President's. If I was going to do unlimited Magistrates, it would probably be on Bureaucracy, not President.

What if Democracy gives 1 free Specialist per city in place of the Capital bonuses? Democracy is supposed to be a mid-point between Republic's tall empire and Monarchy/Federation's wide empire. This would make it attractive in either situation.

For President, I'm thinking about +2 culture per Specialist. I'd like to do commerce but it's not possible with the current XML. You'd have to specify each specialist type separately.

I don't want increased production on any more Rule civics. Bureaucracy, Single Party, and Technocracy all increase production. Technocracy might need some tweaking. I don't want to duplicate mechanics if possible. Some mechanics have been overused (Hurry with Gold on Economy civics) and others still are (Great General bonuses on Military civics, Science on Welfare civics) but a few repeats are acceptable (XP on Military civics).

 

[Vokarya]

I think I'm going to leave Single Party alone. I think it's in good shape.

Technocracy is another story. Its bonuses are okay but derivative. I like the +2 health and -2 happiness. Technocracy is efficient and pays attention to its people but is not necessarily kind about it. Also, no other Rule civic boosts Health.

I'm not sure if the culture penalty is a good idea here. It overlaps with Single Party. Also, the hammer bonus overlaps with Single Party and both bonuses overlap with Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy boosts Gold, not Commerce, but the theme is similar.

So I think we should replace this with +2 hammers from Engineer and +2 beakers from Scientist.

I considered Unlimited Engineer and Scientist but this overlaps with Post-Scarcity. By the time you reach Technocracy in the late Modern Era, you should have 8 Scientist and 8 Engineer slots per city. I think that's more than enough.

 

[Fozman]

What if Democracy gives 1 free Specialist per city in place of the Capital bonuses? Democracy is supposed to be a mid-point between Republic's tall empire and Monarchy/Federation's wide empire. This would make it attractive in either situation.

For President, I'm thinking about +2 culture per Specialist.

Pretty good synergy here; incentive to run both civics simultaneously.

Some mechanics have been overused

Happiness effects are by far the most used mechanic (per my earlier post). You also brought up things like Hurry with Gold, etc. In the case of Hurry with Gold, 100% of those instances are in Economy civics. As it is, that represents a theme in itself, but is overused within the category. Are you considering moving single-line (or heavy single-line usage) mechanics like this to other lines? For example, you mention Technocracy and its health boost being unique to Rule. Almost half the instances of a Health effect are in the Welfare line.

Furthermore, you are proposing several Specialist modifiers. This is a moderately used mechanic currently (approx 10% of civics have this), but over half of these are within the Religion line. Going forward, are you intending to spread lesser used mechanics like this over a broader area? Are you also avoiding single-line mechanics that provide a theme to the line?

 

[Vokarya]

Pretty good synergy here; incentive to run both civics simultaneously.

Happiness effects are by far the most used mechanic (per my earlier post). You also brought up things like Hurry with Gold, etc. In the case of Hurry with Gold, 100% of those instances are in Economy civics. As it is, that represents a theme in itself, but is overused within the category. Are you considering moving single-line (or heavy single-line usage) mechanics like this to other lines? For example, you mention Technocracy and its health boost being unique to Rule. Almost half the instances of a Health effect are in the Welfare line.

I'd consider it if you have some suggestions. There are some things that I consider fundamental areas that most other civic categories aren't going to play with. Health from Welfare civics is a big one. As I said, XP from Military civics is another. There's a bit of a continuum between drafting and XP; Conscription/Mobilization is on one end, Warrior Caste/Vassalage/Volunteer Army is on the other, Standing Army is in the middle, and Pacifism/MAD/Unmanned Warfare are the special cases. Also, I'm not going to break my XP curves.

You did just give me an idea. Hurry with Gold will be a part of the Corporations rule civic. It's the last one I have to design.

Furthermore, you are proposing several Specialist modifiers. This is a moderately used mechanic currently (approx 10% of civics have this), but over half of these are within the Religion line. Going forward, are you intending to spread lesser used mechanics like this over a broader area? Are you also avoiding single-line mechanics that provide a theme to the line?

Not actually sure. I'd like to get some of the Priest benefits out of the Religion civics. At least Intolerant; it needs a severe cutdown because it's one of the most complicated civics we have.

 

[Vokarya]

Is there a possibility we can find a better name for the Vassalage military civic so it doesn't conflict with the Vassalage tech? I don't want to get rid of the civic. It serves a very useful purpose as the first +3 XP civic that can break the 5 XP (two promotions) barrier. If we call it Feudal then it clashes with the Feudal Society civic, but it is a "feudal" army.

(Also, buried in the XML code is a deactivated Vassalage rule civic. It doesn't have any useful mechanics and what I've done with Nobility has a much stronger identity overall.)

 

[Fozman]

My previous post was worded poorly, but I think you got the idea. I wanted to clear it up a bit by expanding on what I said. I'm going to try to cut this from two angles:

1. Civic-line scope... what are the primary mechanics used/changed within them (heavy or exclusive use), what are the secondary mechanics (moderate to heavy use)?
2. Mechanic usage... what mechanics get used everywhere, what mechanics tend to be focused on a particular line(s)? Are there underutilized mechanics that should be spread out or expanded upon?

These outlines are a bit lengthy; I've compacted into Spoiler boxes.

Spoiler Civic-line scope :

• Government
  • Primarily focused on the size of the empire via:
    • Maintenance costs (the City Cap is also exclusive to one civic in this line)
      • A few other lines have maintenance adjustments, Government accounts for about half.
  • Secondarily foci include:
    • Happiness effects, Fixed Borders
      • Happiness effects are in all categories, but I think it should be key here.
• Rule
  • This civic-line is incredibly spread out and currently doesn't have any heavy bias to it. This would be the ideal civic-line to establish a new primary focus or keep things extremely varied to represent different ways to make the empire function.
• Society
  • Primary: Most of the civics here affect core yields , almost all of them have some kind of happiness effect here as well.
    • 3 of the 5 food adjustments are here.
  • Secondary: Various other effects occur here too regarding corporations, city connections, worker speed.
  • Suggestion: Where economy can focus on , corporations, trade and whatnot, Society can focus on , tile yields, workers and maybe even GPP/Specialists (not doing so currently).
• Economy
  • Primary focus here is mostly related along with corporations and trade.
    • Exclusive use of Hurry with Gold (currently)
    • Nearly all tile yield adjustments are here currently. (move to society?)
  • Secondary: Several unique (single use) mechanics are utilized here:
    • No HQ for corp units
    • Slave creation (Slavery to society?)
      
    • Resource consumption (gold & silver coinage)
    • Upgrade units outside of cultural borders
  • Suggestion: Focus this line on ,trade & corporations. Move unrelated mechanics to Society.
• Military
  • Primarily focused on all things military as it should be.
    • The draft mechanic has all but one of its occurrences here.
    • Also the highest instance of happiness mechanics occur here, which makes sense due to War Weariness and the like.
  • But some unique effects occur here too...
    • Units made with food
    • The only instance of maintenance on "home continent".
  • Ties for top use of adjustments with Society. Could amp this up more if needing positive points on a civic.
• Religion
  • Religion effects primarily. Duh.
  • Has the highest occurrence of Specialist modifiers and GPP modifiers of any line.
• Welfare
  • Primary: Health, Science, Improvement Growth (exclusive to this line)
  • Secondary: 1 of 3 worker speed adjustments, GPP adjustments, Happiness effects
• Foreign
  • Primary:
    • Most relation adjustments are here.
    • Foreign connections focused here, and to a lesser extent domestic.
    • Unique effects:
      • Tribute, Donations, Seized Commerce
      • Cannot cease relations / can force negotiation
  • Secondary effects are varied, but usually deal with core or derived yields.

Spoiler Mechanic usage :

• "Shotgun" mechanics, the ones that are used with ubiquity.
  • Happiness is the worst offender, 44/71 civics have some kind of happiness effect, and they occur in all civic categories.
    
  • Production effects occur in 23/71 civics in all categories but Religion. This only counts straight adjustments, not building or unit adjustments.
  • Culture adjustments occur in 19/71 civics in all categories but Welfare. This only counts straight adjustments, not building or specialist adjustments.
• Moderate to heavy use and focused in a single category.
  • Health effects, 14/71, 43% in Welfare.
  • Science effects, 13/71, Welfare again with 38%.
    
  • Commerce effects, 13/71, 38% in Economy.
    
  • GPP adjustments, 13/71, 31% in Religion.
  • Unit production (any type of unit), 17/71, 53% in Military.
  • Maintenance (# of cities), 12/71, 42% in Government.
    
  • Maintenance (distance of cities), 8/71, 50% in Government.
• Light to moderate use and focused, could be expanded more.
  • Food effects, including ±% to yields and ±% needed for city growth, 5 uses, 3 in Society.
  • Specialist modifiers, 7/71, 57% in Religion.
  • Tile yield adjustments, 7 uses, 5 in Economy.
  • +XP, Generals, Supply & Support costs, used 6 or 7 times each and almost all in Military. (+XP not to be expanded, curve is balanced.)
  • Relations adjustments, 7 uses, 5 in Foreign.
• The more unique stuff that could be expanded as is, or modified and used elsewhere.
  • City Defense adjustments, 1 in Rule & 1 in Society. Could also be negative if deemed appropriate.
  • Maintenance for overseas cities, 1 in Government & 1 in Military. Could be a useful positive point for any kind of Imperialistic civic or conversely a negative point for Isolationist, Xenophobic or Mercantile type of civics that do not encourage overseas growth.
  • Hurry with Gold, 4 uses, all in Economy.
  • The Inquisition & Forbidden Civic dynamics. Not necessarily together. An example of where Forbidden Civic could be used is with Slavery.
    
  • Resource consumption with certain civics. Example: Green economy could ban the use of Coal, Oil, etc. by "consuming" it so it cannot be used. Doing so provides a health bonus and maybe some other positive effect for this major loss. I think National Park does this on a 1-city scale with Coal where it is built.

 

[Fozman]

You did just give me an idea. Hurry with Gold will be a part of the Corporations rule civic.

I like it. Could find another use or two for that mechanic elsewhere as we go. We don't have the Whip in the early game like BtS, and an earlier Rush option would be nice.

If I was going to do unlimited Magistrates, it would probably be on Bureaucracy

I wonder if removing the Worker Speed OR + OR + would be an option and using Unlimited Magistrates instead.

Intolerant; it needs a severe cutdown

Suggestions, least dramatic to most...

1. Get rid of +1 Priests.
2. Get rid of Fixed Borders.
3. Get rid of +20% unit production.
4. Remove either the -50% WW or +3 Happy per city. Suggest the +3 Happy since Divine Cult fills this role much better (+4 Happy w/ buildings & significantly less Unhappy from Population). Remove the -25% WW from DC in return.
   
5. Move the +XP elsewhere.

a better name for the Vassalage military civic

AND doesn't use Serfdom, although that might be more thought of as Slavery-lite. What about Villeinage? It's tied to land use, and a Villein is in a social status somewhere between a Slave and a Freeman.

"The system of tied serfdom originates from a decree issued by the late Roman Emperor Diocletian (ruled 284–305) in an attempt to prevent the flight of peasants from the land and the consequent decline in food production. The decree obliged peasants to register in their locality and never leave it; they could leave their villages only to deliver a message or to accompany their lord to war." -from Wikipedia​

 

[<Nexus>]

Autocracy (available with Absolutism)
Theme: "I'm the leader! Look at me!"
Core mechanics:

• +50% production and commerce in the capital. This is the same mechanic as Bureaucracy in BTS, but it comes along almost two eras later (late-Renaissance vs. early-Medieval). I think this is a good way to handle the attention being paid by the leader to the capital.
  
• Civic building: Throne Room. Requires Palace, Forbidden Palace, Versailles, Apadana Palace, or Alhambra (basically every Government Center building except Edinburgh Castle, which is nearly obsolete, and House of Parliament/Voting Link, which are incompatible). Provides +5 culture and +2 Wonder Capacity. It helps you build monuments to your glory.
  
• Incompatible with Democracy/Federation. Is compatible with Republic; represents a nominal ruling body that you dominate.

I like the idea but hate the name. I just can't forget that Autocracy is a type of government - the opposite of Democracy. Being incompatible with Democracy doesn't help me in that. So can't we use a "better" name? Like "Absolute" or "Authoritarian"? Or swap the names: "Despotism" and "Autocracy"?

Talking about civics, I'm still attracted by the idea of adding the code for the "active senate", where you might be prevented to go to war or you might be forced to it by the senate. Maybe this could be applied to other civics as well (Senate, Parliament, maybe Junta and Theocracy). Of course as an option. What do you think Vokarya? Maybe it would be possible to make it work differently for different civics, meaning that for example Parliament would probably have an increased chance to force peace while for example Junta might have an increased chance to force you to go to war. And we might have some other civics overruling the senate's overruling, like for example Personality Cult overruling the Senate. Opinions?

I'd love that very much

 

[<Nexus>]

it is infinitely preferable to having the game take control away from you because the RNG decided your civic wants you to stop doing what you are doing. That is the same catastrophic level of unfun as the idiotic rock falls whole world starves due to RNG event.

The game should newer look you in the eyes and go "Hands of the keyboard kid! I'm flying from here."

From what I remember told by 45 it's not just RNG but AI logic: if you're friendly with that civ it would try to prevent the war. If that civ is weaker than you than it would try enforce the war. So it would force something that you might want to do... in most of the cases. If not than you could still deny the request and suffer the penalty.

I found an unused XML tag in the civic schema: <iReligionSpreadRate>. Apparently it makes religions spread X% faster.

Would this be appropriate for the Prophets civic? Prophets could really use another boost. I find its bonus to Missionaries has a hard time being meaningful.

I do that in Chronicles: +50% for Prophets.

Is there a possibility we can find a better name for the Vassalage military civic so it doesn't conflict with the Vassalage tech? I don't want to get rid of the civic. It serves a very useful purpose as the first +3 XP civic that can break the 5 XP (two promotions) barrier. If we call it Feudal then it clashes with the Feudal Society civic, but it is a "feudal" army.

How about renaming the tech to "Feudalism"?

AND doesn't use Serfdom, although that might be more thought of as Slavery-lite. What about Villeinage? It's tied to land use, and a Villein is in a social status somewhere between a Slave and a Freeman.

"The system of tied serfdom originates from a decree issued by the late Roman Emperor Diocletian (ruled 284–305) in an attempt to prevent the flight of peasants from the land and the consequent decline in food production. The decree obliged peasants to register in their locality and never leave it; they could leave their villages only to deliver a message or to accompany their lord to war." -from Wikipedia

For me that sounds more like a Society civic than a Military one.

 

[<Nexus>]

Junta (available with Military Tradition)
Theme: A government ruled by professional military forces.
Core mechanics:

• +25% unit production. It's better than Warlords; in fact this is supposed to be Warlords 2.0.
  
• Can Draft 2 units per turn.
• -25% war weariness.
• -1 relations with other leaders. Is this enough? MAD is only -2, and while this is the equivalent of patrolling your front yard with an arsenal of weapons ready, it's not as bad as threatening Armageddon.
• Incompatible with Pacifism.

Something I have in mind for a long time for a Junta civic:

• +1 free Great Military Instructor
• -2 for Great Military Instructor

This would give Junta a new twist: Cities are governed by military leaders who focus on warfare but cripple economy. But if you can tech them new skill they get better - via building or civics that give some bonus to any specialist.

 

[Fozman]

I like the idea but hate the name. I just can't forget that Autocracy is a type of government - the opposite of Democracy. Being incompatible with Democracy doesn't help me in that. So can't we use a "better" name? Like "Absolute" or "Authoritarian"? Or swap the names: "Despotism" and "Autocracy"?

Agreed with this two weeks ago.

For me that sounds more like a Society civic than a Military one.

How about renaming the tech to "Feudalism"?

Feudalism and Vassalage are both used as Tech names currently. I think Vokarya is trying to avoid having a Civic name be the same as a Tech name.

That being said, it is a Medieval Era military civic used to raise a feudal army. So... why not rename Vassalage as Feudal and Feudal as Villeinage? Solves both problems and the name inspires better mechanics on the society civic.

 

[<Nexus>]

Feudalism and Vassalage are both used as Tech names currently.

Sorry, I forgot that

That being said, it is a Medieval Era military civic used to raise a feudal army. So... why not rename Vassalage as Feudal and Feudal as Villeinage? Solves both problems and the name inspires better mechanics on the society civic.

Makes sense to me.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Is there a possibility we can find a better name for the Vassalage military civic so it doesn't conflict with the Vassalage tech? I don't want to get rid of the civic. It serves a very useful purpose as the first +3 XP civic that can break the 5 XP (two promotions) barrier. If we call it Feudal then it clashes with the Feudal Society civic, but it is a "feudal" army.

(Also, buried in the XML code is a deactivated Vassalage rule civic. It doesn't have any useful mechanics and what I've done with Nobility has a much stronger identity overall.)

I also prefer to avoid double names, but in this case I can't find a better name. Maybe Fozman suggestion renaming Vassallage as Feudal and Feudal as Villeinage is the best option (although I don't like Villeinage very much), but then we have a problem with techs: looks strange that Vassallage (tech) enables Feudal (civic) while Feudalism (tech) enables Villeinage (if I'm not mistaken, I can't look at the tech tree right now).

Also I like Fozman suggestion for Green which should remove Oil and Coal, although we've used this mechanic as a way to USE those resources (gold and silver) while in this case we would use it to simply REMOVE those resources.

 

[Fozman]

I don't like Villeinage very much

Yeah. If we're kicking this over to Society anyway, Serfdom is pretty much the same thing with an easier name.

looks strange that Vassalage (tech) enables Feudal (civic) while Feudalism (tech) enables Villeinage

Feudalism tech requires the Vassalage tech and the Feudalism tech kicks on 3 civics currently: Vassalage, Feudal and Imperium.

So confusing that I had to edit a few times...

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

What about renaming Vassallage (military civic) to Feudal and rename Feudal (society civic) to Serfdom?