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Civics Improvements Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by os79, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I think the window only really closes for Ancient Era and early Classical Era civics. Since this is the "struggling up from barbarism" phase, I don't want the civics to be too good at that point; otherwise, there isn't much reason to change.

    Even Classical Era civics are still good for a while. Monarchy is supposed to be the best "big empire" government; how it compares to Federation is something to test. Public Works is the best Welfare civic for building production until Superhuman; Mercenaries is the Military civic that produces the most units at the top of the XP curve until Volunteer Army.

    I'm trying for specialization in the later civics, like MAD and Shadow War. That way I think it's easy enough to comprehend the civic and decide if it fits your current civilization. It also frees up room for other civics to possibly move into the vacated area. Example: As long as Intolerant gives +2 XP to units, I don't want to give XP to any other civic category outside Military and Religion to avoid breaking the curves. If I take away the XP from Intolerant (keeping the unit production bonus -- think "crusading hordes" rather than "holy warriors") and give it to Theocracy, then Rule civics, like Junta, can get into the XP area and not worry about breaking anything. This is where I see Naval Supremacy as fitting in.
     
  2. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    What about Reliquary rather than Chapel? I haven't found anything better and I want to get this implemented.
     
  3. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I would suggest chancery. It's one word and has both religious and legal associations.
     
  4. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    This isn't legal-related at all, otherwise I'd go for it. What I've been looking for is a religious/military building for the Theocracy civic.

    The whole point of Theocracy's civic building is to replace Intolerant's "+2 XP from state religion" ability. Intolerant has many abilities and I want to trim it down. At the same time, I don't want players to be able to break 5 XP for Melee or Archery units prior to reaching the Medieval Era, unless they spend a Great General on a Great Military Instructor. The best you can do up to that point is 4 XP from Barracks/Archery Range plus Warrior Caste/Mercenaries. Knight's Stable + WC/Mercs goes to 5 XP for Mounted units before that, but I can live with it.

    The Theocracy civic itself will be available in the Classical Era at Scriptures tech. By putting the XP on a civic building, I can delay the XP without having to delay the civic. I've just been looking for a proper name.

    I know it's amazingly specific, but I know exactly why I want what I'm trying to achieve.
     
  5. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    I like it.
    I recall seeing it as a UB for a Teutonic civ in some other mod. It had nice arts. I can look after it for tomorrow.
     
  6. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Sorry? The very first link in a web-search brings up this definition: A record office for public archives or those of ecclesiastical, legal, or diplomatic proceedings. It's also used for certain modern US & UK courts. (It's actually easier to say that it has no religious relations, rather than no legal ones!)

    Moreover, I don't see how a reliquary (a place for storing sacred relics) has any military associations that can't also be applied to pretty much any mediaeval topic.
     
  7. Samson

    Samson Chieftain

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    From knowing very little about history, after googling what it is (a container for holy relics) it made sense to me. I think this comes from 3 sources:
    • Probably the most famous reliquary ever, the ark of the covenant, was taken into battle
    • Holy relics are strongly associated with the crusades, one of the most famous medieval religious / military alliances
    • The holy hand grenade of St. Antioch
     
  8. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    There's also the famous Oriflamme, the battle banner of St Denis, but equally a reliquary could refer to the remains of St Thomas Becket, the Turin Shroud or pieces of the True Cross.
     
  9. Sock Thing

    Sock Thing Chieftain

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    How about fortress church? There are several churches in the world which have been called such. The only other thing I could think of would be something like pilgrimage fort or site basically like the Templar idea but trying to make it more generic for the other religions.
     
  10. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    By "this", I meant what I was looking for in a Theocracy civic building. Something deserves to get the +XP from State Religion that, in BTS, is part of the actual Theocracy religion civic. But that civic isn't available until the Medieval Era.

    Putting the XP on a civic building is more convoluted, but it means that I can effectively assign different tech prerequisites to the civic and the XP, and use that to delay the XP. I think as a Rule civic, Theocracy has a place in the Classical Era, but I don't want it to give XP right away. This actually matches the best you can do in BTS; in the vanilla game, the best you can do is 3 XP from Barracks and then Vassalage or Theocracy is the next easy way to get 5 XP units.

    So to make this feel appropriate, I need a name that combines a military flavor with a religious flavor, and I've been trying to find something that fits but I haven't found anything that feels right yet.
     
  11. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    I found it. It was in Multiverse mod.
    Civ4ScreenShot0864.JPG

    BTW: Could it have an affect like Lascaux caves? Providing :culture: for every victory? If it could be limited to "Victory over the heathens" only (so barbarians and civs with the same state-religion excluded) I think it wouldn't be too powerful.
     
  12. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Historically, priory was (amongst others) the term for the various headquarters of the knightly orders. You could also use commandry, but that's not as catchy.
     
  13. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Priory sounds really nice. As to where to put it my suggestion would be to make it an upgrade to the castle like the various turrets are. That way you need to have a castle in a city to build a priory. And that nicely delays it until the high middle ages.
     
  14. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    That makes sense.

    More brainstorming:

    We could even have 3 civic buildings with 3 different effects but only one can be built in each city.

    Templar Order:
    free City Defense promotion and/or city defense bonus

    Teutonic Order:
    +2Xp

    Hospitaler Order:

    free Medic promotion and/or unit healing in the city

    Just some rather quick ideas to share :)
     
  15. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Using Knights rather than Order would probably be more well-known, e.g. the Knights Hospitaller.
     
  16. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    V already said he is not in support of doing different versions for each religion. I very much doubt he would be in support of doing multiple ones in some other way.

    But if we are just throwing ideas out completely freely I would honestly like to see holy orders implemented as corporations. Like, first cut down on the number of actual gilds and corps in the game as there are just way too many to care about. Second, have one holy order per religion that gives people access to certain bonuses (like say city with the holy order can build crusaders and gets bonus XP) and than give theocracy the ability to spread those holy orders by building the building we are talking about where as everyone else has to pray for a lucky random spread.

    But like I know this won't be implemented.
     
  17. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    I do consider these for Chronicles too.
    So keep brainstorming, I'm harvesting the ideas :)
     
  18. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Knightly orders have been done as Corporations before (RFC Europe, and maybe others). I considered that, but the problem is how it handles with Realistic Corporations turned on. Just a thought there.
     
  19. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Speaking of Realistic Corporations I find the whole mechanism it self to be rather lackluster. Basically when ever it is mentioned in game the interface describes it with numbers, as if those matter. But in reality you only have one or at most two effects modifying that at any given time so it in large ends up with civics being an on/off switch. And because it's tied to civics which effect far more things it ends up being something you can't really prioritize. Like, you are newer going to pick an economy civic just for the corporation effects (except maybe guilds) and that in it self means that the entire mechanism gets relegated to a background position as opposed to something the player can really fiddle with.
     
  20. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Corporations is really not a good way for this, IMO.

    What would really be great is a third category after Religions and Corporation: Organizations.
    It would not be affected by corporation related mechanics, though could work very similar.

    That would provide a place for many thing:
    • Knightly orders
    • Mafias
    • Greenpeace
    • Red Cross
     

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