Civics Improvements Suggestions

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya
I will rework Territory civics in Chronicles and will no longer use the Fiefdom name. Just in case you need it.

I'm not sure I would have a use for it. I do want to make the Vassalage military civic into Fealty and the Feudal society civic into Serfdom.

 

[Vokarya]

I need to finish coding the Rule civics and their buildings before I look at Economy, but I will say this. Foreign commerce penalties are not going to be part of the Barter civic because there is no foreign commerce at that point to penalize. Foreign trade does not work the same in AND as it does in BTS; city connections don't give any commerce on their own. Connectedness commerce relies on buildings and the first general building is the Caravanserai, which is not available until the early Classical Era. The first transition should come well before that.

I'm thinking of ideas for what to do about the Ancient Era economy. I definitely want there to be something between Barter and Coinage.

 

[<Nexus>]

I also had an idea about Planned Economy. I think the "Corporations Have No Affect" is a pretty big penalty. How about this instead:

• No Foreign Corporations
• Your Corporations Have No Foreign Affect

That would mean that your corporations would shut down business outside your (and your vassals') cities. I know this would require additional coding but I think this would make Planned actually useful. And more realistic too, since planned economies didn't lack corporations but but had total governmental control over them.

 

[Urza1234]

Connectedness commerce relies on buildings and the first general building is the Caravanserai, which is not available until the early Classical Era. The first transition should come well before that.

I'm thinking of ideas for what to do about the Ancient Era economy. I definitely want there to be something between Barter and Coinage.

Eh, I mean, economics is kind of an oddball category, is there really anything wrong with that?

In terms of game design, as long as everyone is stuck with Barter until Coinage then there is no advantage given to anyone, no fault there. In those same terms, as long as the difference between Barter and Coinage is a relative benefit that scales over time then the unlock tech Currency will not be overvalued or warp the surrounding tree, so no fault there.

In terms of history, which is somewhat relevant to this game, I dont think there really was any identifiable extra stage between Barter and Currency, and for a lot of the history of barter trade was done with a commodity money anyway, frequently of precious metals or grain of regulated weights. In the places where where Coinage has emerged independently a token currency of metals already existed, the main transition was just in production and stamping etc and ofc some conceptualization.

If for whatever reason ensuring that the Economics category has an extra gimp civic that exists only to switch away from is an imperative; I could instead mention the theories that early tribal economies more likely did not even operate on the basis of Barter, but rather on the basis of what I think is mostly known as a Gift economy, sharing is caring. The main distinction being that barter is a transaction, it has immediacy, the gift economy operates on trust and community, thus you can give to your neighbor today and they if able may give to you next year, but not in a necessarily formalized manner. This obviously had serious issues operating beyond a single tribe or community. Barter supposedly first existed between heads of tribes to exchange whatever specialized resources the tribes had to trade, then became more prevalent down the social strata as wealth increased both the means and need for it.

Thus, rather than inventing a transition between Barter and Coinage, Barter could be the transition between an earlier civic and Coinage.

Idk if any of that is helpful to you, but if you're working on ideas that might be a place to start.

... but I will say this. Foreign commerce penalties are not going to be part of the Barter civic because there is no foreign commerce at that point to penalize. Foreign trade does not work the same in AND as it does in BTS; city connections don't give any commerce on their own. Connectedness commerce relies on buildings and the first general building is the Caravanserai, which is not available until the early Classical Era. The first transition should come well before that.

I did in fact understand that there were different mechanics than in BTS and that Foreign is irrelevant in the Ancient Era, that was part of the point. I did not necessarily see the need for the 1st Economy civic to be a gimp that exists only to be switched away from in the Ancient Era. I see no basis for that philosophy, there are plenty of other categories that do not operate by that philosophy and as far as I can tell are not harmed thusly. Certainly there are a number of Civics that should be deincentivized at some point for historical reasons, but the when, how and why is important. Therefore since I saw no reason that the player should be forced out of Barter in the Ancient Era I thought that a penalty to Barter that only became relevant in following Eras when Barter did in fact cease as the main method of exchange seemed appropriate.
The other part of the point was that currently** the transition between Barter and its 1st alternative, Slavery, is not at all subtle, thus I thought that having the transition between Barter and Coinage(when slavery is removed as an intermediate) being subtle would be a good thing. In the period of the game where Currency is unlocked most civs are both building that early building the infamous Caravanserai as well as expanding; thus the power of both Foreign and Domestic, begins to increase, but in a gradual way. A choice that is too obvious is a non-choice. Since I believe we are forced to discourage use of Barter in later Eras for good reason, I thought that the choice could be not if to switch, but exactly when to switch. The components of that choice that I thought would be interesting were the opportunity cost of Anarchy against some kind of relative +% from Coinage to Barter and for flavor the gradually increasing importance of .
The third part of that point, which is less important to some than others, is that historically part of the incentive of switching from barter to coinage was the literal currency it afforded in foreign trade. This is of course a game, but when mechanics can so readily match their historical counterpart should they in fact not?
All of this reasoning is of course irrelevant if we are operating under the unbendable premise that Barter must be abandoned in the ancient era, which I was not when I reasoned my reasoning.


**currently, in rev1066 and previously, the gap between Barter and the 1st alternative to it is Huge, switching from Barter to Slavery is a 66% increase in , almost entirely just because the penalties to Barter are so extreme. That kind of a relative increase in economic power would be insane anywhere else in the tech tree, if anyone hasnt noticed it I assert it is only because so early in the game almost every single tech has some kind of huge relative value.

 

[Vokarya]

I also had an idea about Planned Economy. I think the "Corporations Have No Affect" is a pretty big penalty. How about this instead:

• No Foreign Corporations
• Your Corporations Have No Foreign Affect

That would mean that your corporations would shut down business outside your (and your vassals') cities. I know this would require additional coding but I think this would make Planned actually useful. And more realistic too, since planned economies didn't lack corporations but but had total governmental control over them.

I think that's too subtle. Planned is supposed to be the "broad strokes" version of the Soviet-style economy. So if it exaggerates, I think it's okay. Plus, there aren't any other "No Corporations" economy civics, except possibly Post-Scarcity, and I'd like to have at least one.

 

[<Nexus>]

I know know Vokarya has already settled about the change of Free Church civic but I'd like to give a second thought on the topic.

Each civic in the category has a well defined theme:
(I made a little "web-comic" just for my own fun )

Folklore: no state religion.

Spoiler :

Prophets: there is a state-church but it's young and weak.

Spoiler :

Divine Cult: state and church are subdued to the ruler.

Spoiler :

Intolerant: state and church united in a common goal:

Spoiler :

Secular: no state religion but all are accepted.

Spoiler :

Atheist: no state religion and none are accepted.

Spoiler :

(This part was only for fun )
There are 2 more civics options/possibilities. I'm not using the in-game names because those aren't 100% accurate.

Church over the State: the classical medieval model when the church was so strong that it ruled over nations. The pope crowned the kings and so on.
In game State Church is close to this: Holy Cities gain a bonus. Ideal choice if you control the holy city.

Spoiler :

State over the Church: classical examples are Church of England and Russian Tzardom where the head of the state is also head of the church.
In game it could mean a bonus in the capital and not in the holy city. Ideal choice if you don't control the holy city.

Spoiler :

And maybe still there is room for the already planned Reformed Church, where church and state are getting separated.

Spoiler :

 

[Arakhor]

Full marks for the visual cues.

 

[Vokarya]

I would love a slightly broader concept for Divine Cult rather than just "deify the ruler". I think of Divine Cult as an indigenous religion with significant political power, while State Church is belonging to a multinational religion. If I could create mechanics, the mechanic that I would use for State Church would be +relations with other civilizations with the same state religion.

 

[<Nexus>]

I think of Divine Cult as an indigenous religion with significant political power

Me too. DC is an extra "national religion" that accepts any other religion that recognizes the ruler as a "god".

mechanic that I would use for State Church would be +relations with other civilizations with the same state religion.

That would be nice indeed

Full marks for the visual cues.

THX! It was fun to do it

 

[Vokarya]

I have some ideas coming together about Economic civics. First, a tweak to Free Market.

What if we drop the general penalty to and bonus to , and add a bonus to connectedness ? Since commerce from worked tiles and other buildings wouldn't be affected, we could make this bonus number bigger. I don't think +50% would be out of line, but it could be lowered. We would keep the rush with gold, the corporate maintenance break, and the bonus commerce from Cottage-line improvements.

We don't have any Economy civics that increase overall connectedness commerce. Coinage and Mercantile increase domestic trade and decrease foreign trade, while Post-Scarcity boosts foreign trade while penalizing domestic trade. No Economy civic does both, and I think Free Market is a good place for that. It encourages you to sign trade agreements with as many other civilizations as possible.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is what I am considering for the early Economy civics.

Barter: This doesn't need to have penalties to serve as a brake on the Ancient Era as long as we keep my other brake intact: the tax and science sliders are locked at 50% until you discover Writing. This enforces the "up from barbarism" theme of the Ancient Era.

(Note: The XML does not support making the slider locks an in-game option. Out of game, it is possible to revert the sliders to their default BTS behavior by deleting Civ4CommerceInfo.xml from the mod folder. This file controls whether or not the sliders are locked; the initial settings; the happiness from each slider; and the AI weighting of each slider. Deleting this file will cause the mod to load the original BTS version of the file.)

Tribute: This replaces Slavery in the Ancient Era, with Slavery going to the Society category. It represents the economy being controlled by a small power group. Its primary bonus is a a small bonus to production, possibly coupled with using the "seize commerce" mechanic from Imperium. It lacks Slavery's other features. At best, it is commerce-neutral, but I am strongly thinking it should penalize general commerce but allow the Hoard building at Currency. Hoard is currently Raiders' civic building, but I think it could work for both. For negative features, increased unhappiness in all cities, either flat or tax-rate-based, or cities require more food to grow would fit along with the general commerce penalty. I don't want too many penalties, but I don't want it to be too strong either.

Coinage: I don't think the "coining" mechanic is working here. I would prefer a "kickstart trade" mechanic by providing +50% production to Market and Bank. By this time, Market replaces Bazaar so you don't need to boost Bazaars, and Bank is included to maybe keep it viable compared to Guilds in the Medieval and early Renaissance Eras. We can keep the changes to connectedness commerce; your people trust YOUR coins, but they don't trust others as much.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here is what I am considering for the early Economy civics.

Barter: This doesn't need to have penalties to serve as a brake on the Ancient Era as long as we keep my other brake intact: the tax and science sliders are locked at 50% until you discover Writing. This enforces the "up from barbarism" theme of the Ancient Era.

(Note: The XML does not support making the slider locks an in-game option. Out of game, it is possible to revert the sliders to their default BTS behavior by deleting Civ4CommerceInfo.xml from the mod folder. This file controls whether or not the sliders are locked; the initial settings; the happiness from each slider; and the AI weighting of each slider. Deleting this file will cause the mod to load the original BTS version of the file.)

Tribute: This replaces Slavery in the Ancient Era, with Slavery going to the Society category. It represents the economy being controlled by a small power group. Its primary bonus is a a small bonus to production, possibly coupled with using the "seize commerce" mechanic from Imperium. It lacks Slavery's other features. At best, it is commerce-neutral, but I am strongly thinking it should penalize general commerce but allow the Hoard building at Currency. Hoard is currently Raiders' civic building, but I think it could work for both. For negative features, increased unhappiness in all cities, either flat or tax-rate-based, or cities require more food to grow would fit along with the general commerce penalty. I don't want too many penalties, but I don't want it to be too strong either.

Coinage: I don't think the "coining" mechanic is working here. I would prefer a "kickstart trade" mechanic by providing +50% production to Market and Bank. By this time, Market replaces Bazaar so you don't need to boost Bazaars, and Bank is included to maybe keep it viable compared to Guilds in the Medieval and early Renaissance Eras. We can keep the changes to connectedness commerce; your people trust YOUR coins, but they don't trust others as much.

Looks good to me. About Barter and solides lock, I don't understand: is this something requiring dll changes? From your description, I think so.

 

[<Nexus>]

Tribute: This replaces Slavery in the Ancient Era, with Slavery going to the Society category. It represents the economy being controlled by a small power group. Its primary bonus is a a small bonus to production, possibly coupled with using the "seize commerce" mechanic from Imperium. It lacks Slavery's other features. At best, it is commerce-neutral, but I am strongly thinking it should penalize general commerce but allow the Hoard building at Currency. Hoard is currently Raiders' civic building, but I think it could work for both. For negative features, increased unhappiness in all cities, either flat or tax-rate-based, or cities require more food to grow would fit along with the general commerce penalty. I don't want too many penalties, but I don't want it to be too strong either.

That sounds interesting.
May I suggest as a penalty a diplomatic penalty with those who are also running Tribute (not willing to pay the "seize commerce"). Unhappiness and growth rate penalties are overused and thus boring.

 

[Pepo]

I don't think setting fixed sliders is a good idea without also modifying the research costs. Also that I don't think is justify from a historical point, ancient governments were really ineffective at taxing their people

 

[Vokarya]

Looks good to me. About Barter and solides lock, I don't understand: is this something requiring dll changes? From your description, I think so.

No DLL changes required. It just requires a new copy of CIV4CommerceInfo.xml in the mod, with <bFlexiblePercent> set to 0 for COMMERCE_RESEARCH. Normally it's set to 1. Then add a <CommerceFlexible> for the unlock tech, the way Drama unlocks the Culture slider, and that's all.

I was actually quite surprised when I coded it and it worked. It might be too blunt, but I really like the theme of the Ancient Era being the era of stepping stones to full civilization status.

 

[Vokarya]

More thoughts on particular civics.

I've been trying to figure out how much happiness Personality Cult should give. When it becomes available, either naturally through techs or via Shwedagon Paya, it has to compete with Free Church/Reformation and Secular. Secular's +1 happy/religion can't really be lowered any further, and with Universal Church's extra +1 happiness, that's looking at +5-7 happy per city without too much trouble. Reformation is worth at least +5 happiness: +1 from State Religion in general, +2 from State Religion with Reformation, and at least +2 from Temple. Both of these civics can also net more happiness in key places from Cathedrals.

To compete, I think Personality Cult should be raised from its conditional +6 happiness to +4 happiness off the bat and an additional +4 happiness from a new Propaganda Office civic building. I considered +6/+3 from the building but I think the +6 might be over-the-top.

 

[Vokarya]

Also, is there room for Digital in the Economy civics category?

Like Virtual, I was thinking this would be a civic that would have some penalties offset by a civic building that can only be unlocked by a Computer Network and the Internet.

In this case, Digital would penalize general production, but provide a small benefit to corporate maintenance and have the Datacenter as a civic building that could be built in every city instead of the current restrictions. The E-Bank and Global Stock Exchange might be restricted too, but I'm not sure how much I want to force the Digital civic to get benefits that would otherwise be unlocked by mere technology.

Also, Free Market would lose its corporation maintenance decrease. I was asked to consider removing it, and I don't think it would go wrong. In BTS, Free Market is the only corporation-friendly economic civic, but we have Corporate to take up that mantle. So if you really want corporation power, you have to run Corporate or wait until the end of the Modern Era for Digital.

 

[Pepo]

For a supposed civic of digital ,I would suggest that it should be the civic for favouring commerce above all. I think of it as a much more extreme version of free market, where a lot of the problems with transactions (information and displacement costs) are removed. I would suggests the following bullet points:
- A 15% bonus to commerce, being only lower than free market for gameplay reasons ( the civic building)
- A -25% (or even higher) to both production(being more profitable to spent time on nonproductive business like the financial market) and espionage (Being open online to the world make your nation more vulnerable)
-+2 commerce to submerged town. This is mainly to not repeat the cottage line bonuses, but I also think that it makes sense(make inhabitants of the seas an easier time to participated in economy)
-Cities without power get a -30% to commerce and unhappiness. I don't know if i t can be coded, but I believe it makes sense that it would hit hard a shutdown for cities in this model
-Civic building: Online markets (name could use a rework). Very similar to the OP free port of the free market civic, only that even more powerful. I would say 1 extra commerce for each connected domestic city, and 1extra for every two foreign cities. Also a +10% to gold production. Basically a really powerful building that makes the civic the top for economic production .Side note: I believe that the free port should be nerfed a bit, I believe it's over performing and making free market a better choice than planned or corporate
-Reduced corporation maintenance as you proposed

I believe that it is good that you are fleshing out the economic civics to make then more interesting choice wise. I believe that the two thing more lacking right now are future civics( I would love some sort of crazy religious civic were citizens believe they are in contact with god due to brainwashing) and rule civic category( I believe is the more lacking, with democratic government s being over represented. I would love more authoritarian ones for present eras that focus more on the military or production)

 

[<Nexus>]

I would love some sort of crazy religious civic were citizens believe they are in contact with god due to brainwashing

You don't need a new civic for that. But I do have some "crazy sci-fi religious civic" ideas

The first one I'd call "Divine Complex" but Ascension is probably a better name.
It represents something like the Advent in Sins of a Solar Empire or the Masari in Universe at War. The main theme is:
"We are a divine nation. We deserve devotion and worship from the inferior nations. We are gods."

• No state religion
• 1 per religions
• -25% War ("We justly bring punishment on the inferiors for not serving us.")
• +50% Military production
• +5Xp
• -4 Diplomatic penalty

As you see it's mainly a a warmonger civic, that is effective in wartime but not in peacetime. It helps defeating your enemies but it's also easy to make new enemies and lose old friends. And it has no bonus which can be a problem if you have no other sources of .

Temple of Ascension (Civic building)

• +2
• +5
• +50% faster production of Paradise Garden (in this city)
• +2% faster production of Ascension Gate (in all cities)

So it slightly helps with the problem and greatly with Ascension Victory.

____________________________________________________

The other one is Homeworld from game of the same title.
"It's a philosophical-religious movement based on the idea that mankind does not originate from Earth but somewhere from space."

• No state religion
• +20% and
• +5 Diplomatic bonus with everyone of the same civic ("Finding our real homeworld should unite us all.")

Guidestone (World Wonder Civic Building)

• +50% SS production in all cities (Space Elevator is +25%)

So Homeworld civic is focused around Spaceship Victory.

 

[Pepo]

I would say that home world would be more fitting for a future religion rather than a civic. One religion that is focus on production and science but that gives meagre culture output, with the guildstone being the Unique wonder
Also when I was thinking about some possibilities for civs, I think it would be interesting to add one civic based on the society of a "Brave new world", where your citizens are content, if ineffective
Chemical bliss
- No in cities. This will be the main selling point for the civic, as in latter game unhappiness can sometimes be a problem.
- -25% and -33%
- -20%
-+4
- -75% war weariness
- Civic building: Church of Ford A really expensive building that grants +2 free celebrities and +2 priests, gives +20% and add 5%
-For revolutions, +5 to both national and local stability

So a good civic for playing with rev and keeping your empire happy