That shouldn't work anymore.
Civilisation Attributes open discussion
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Crimean Lord
Warlord
America:
1.) Historical Goals- I agree with Leoreth that the first goal is sort of inappropriate for America, and encourages ahistorical gameplay. Here's how I would change the historical goals:
This change would give the American player a bit of freedom (heh) in the way they choose to pursue their 19th century America. They can choose to grow and develop their infrastructure and alliances relatively peacefully, or they can go out and vassalize Mexico or Colombia, in line with the Mexican-American War and the fillibusters of the 19th century. Also, I am not sure if the "commercial power" of the current Pax Americana just refers to (
- Pax Americana: Control 75% of North and South America's commercial/military power between you, your vassals, and your allies in 1900; And control 75% of the world's commercial/military power between you, your vassals, and your allies in 1990.
), or it refers to (
,
,
,
). But if it is the former, I propose that it be changed to the latter. Doing this would showcase many things: the immense capital development of America (think "Great Buildings" produced by great people, such as stock exchanges and academies), the peaking of American culture in the 1980s, and the enormous spying apparatus that I am blessed to live under. Additionally, if nukes do not currently count towards the military power, they should be changed to. We don't currently have a historical goal that implicitly or explicitly involves nuclear weapon building, and this would be a good fit for America.
I removed the two bridge wonders (Brooklyn and Golden Gate) and added Hollywood and Graceland to the wonder list because I feel that America's dominance in film and music is more emblematic of its "city on a hill" status than those bridges are. America is still incentivized to build these wonders due to the amount of rivers and specialists they have, but I don't believe they fit as hard requirements.
- Shining City on a Hill: Construct Statue of Liberty, Hollywood, Empire State Building, Pentagon, United Nations, and Graceland by 1960 AD
Just like there is currently no historical goal associated with nuclear weapons, there is also no historical goal associated with modern corporations. (The closest we have is the Turks and their silk road requirement.) This suggestion would push the historical player to do several historical things: build the World Trade Center, search/trade for resources (oil) abroad, and stick with Free Enterprise.
- American Capitalism: Have your corporations provide a total of XXX commercial and base yield (
,
,
2.) Unique Units- I am a big fan of the Pioneer, and so I have no problems with it. The Minuteman is also okay, but if we are changing the American goals to be less "19th century war-making" heavy, I think we can afford it if the Minuteman is replaced with another unit. I propose the re-introduction of the Navy SEAL unit from the base game.
Navy SEAL- Replaces the Marine, has 1-2 extra first strikes, starts with March promotion.
Due to the amount of foreign wars America has fought in the 20th century up till the present day, I think this unit will help the America player do more damage with their units, as well as heal faster for the next attack.
3.) Unique Power- I am not so sure that providing American cities with extra happiness is exactly realistic, as American history is rife with protests of all sorts. Though it might serve its purpose in keeping American cities happy, I generally don't think there's a special case to be made for American cities needing to be exceptionally happy. I would much rather see America pickup Canada's current unique power (immigrants bringto your cities). I can think of several prominent immigrants to America off the top of my head: Carnegie, Schwarzenegger, Einstein. This new power would also fit in well with Democracy.
4.) Small issues/Nitpicking- Lincoln's favorite civic should maybe be Nationhood instead of Constitution, as this could encourage the AI player to drop Isolationism sooner than the 20th century, and also represents his goal of "preserving the union." The cow in the Louisiana basin should be moved 1 tile NW, so New Orleans can be properly placed at the mouth of the Mississippi River. And the spices tile in south Texas should either be made into historical territory for America, or the river should empty out into the Gulf one tile north of it, as the Rio Grande is the border between America and Mexico. And I agree with Banefire that Spain should start with control of California in the 1700 AD map, and it should be in the Mexico flipzone.
Great suggestion!
Really small feedback from me: what about the possibility to increase productive of city' s specialists if there is non-American culure
Well: I think it's realistic simulation of Americam Dream when so called First Generation of Immigrants work really hard
Ivan Preuss
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2018
- Messages
- 33
Brazilian UP should be
THE POWER OF CORDIALIDADE
(after Holanda's "cordial man")
- Increased culture output for any given amount of surplus happiness (I don't care about the ratio, really).
IF YOU DISAGREE THEN TAKE YOUR SUGAR AND HEAD TO DIABETESVILLE, BECAUSE GETTING BONUSES FROM SUGAR IS ******ED !!!
THE POWER OF CORDIALIDADE
(after Holanda's "cordial man")
- Increased culture output for any given amount of surplus happiness (I don't care about the ratio, really).
IF YOU DISAGREE THEN TAKE YOUR SUGAR AND HEAD TO DIABETESVILLE, BECAUSE GETTING BONUSES FROM SUGAR IS ******ED !!!
Hickman888
Prince
Thanks! And I'm not so sure about that ability, as it would encourage players to not build any culture buildings in their cities, in hopes that foreign culture would be more predominant. I would like to see an immigrant related power, however, so maybe immigrants can temporarily do something to that effect for 10 turns?
But back on topic, Im not sure if this is the right thread but as an avid Polynesia player I think they need more dynamic names depending on capitol and for a united Polynesia. Also add micronesia as a civ
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Am I supposed to guess them? Detect via telepathy?
Sorry, I was pressed for time and had to go, but anyway the first group of dynamic names for different capitols like kingdom of Rapa nui, Hawaii, Tahiti ect, the second was one for a united polynesia eg empire of polynesia.
Ill look for it next time I attempt to get Polynesia to the modern age.
Krieger-FS
Warlord
Some thoughts about Argentina:
UHVs:
I guess we all agree that having two very much similar UHVs involving Golden Ages are kind of undesirable. Thus, my first suggestion here is to scrap one, possibly merging them in a single UHV: The Argentine Paradox (same name as UHV1): Have two Golden Ages by 1930 and six by 2000.
I have been cracking my mind in last weeks trying to find new alternative UHVs to replace the third and, being honest, I'm not that settled for any of the ideas that popped in my mind. So, tossing some ideas:
Another possibility – though I don’t have any good ideas for UHV name – is to represent the fact that Argentina is the Latin American country that has won most Nobel prizes, which could require generating/settling certain number of distinct Great Persons. Nonetheless, this proposal could make considerably more harder the Golden Age UHV, though it could be included as additional requirement to UHV2 (Tango and Poetry: have legendary culture in Buenos Aires by 1960).
UB:
Honestly, I find the Cold Storage quite an uninspiring UB. Sure, the commercial use of refrigeration to transport frozen meat was crucial for Argentine economic growth by late 19th century, but the technologies required weren’t neither invented by the Argentines nor particularly unique for them (the US and Australia, for example, also were benefited). Sincerely, I think that the Cold Storage should be a regular building available with Refrigeration that gives bonus like extra gold to pasture resources (also, it would fit well if we add a meat industry as corporation).
This leaves the question about which should be Argentine UB. I think about two good candidates: the Estancia and the Tanguería. The first is a large estate usually used for cattle raising common in the pampas (the South American southern steppes) which is similar in many aspects to the US ranch and has deep social and cultural impacts in the Argentine history and society. It could provide bonus for pasture resources and extra experience for cavalry units. On the downside, I’m not sure we have available art for it here, and we should consider that it would be another unique Estate for the Latin Americans like currently both the Colombians and Brazilians already have. The Tanguería is a kind of dance studio/saloon/club specialized in tango shows. It was quite popular in early 20th century and today they are as touristic attractions. Ideally, I think that an Art Nouveau styled building would be perfect (giving that it would represent the tanguerías at their peak), but in practical terms we have the art in CivGold/Rise of Making mods (named as Dance Studio). Could replace the Cinema or being a late-available and improved Theater whose the bonus could be a mix of additional culture output, artists slots and Great Person generation.
UU:
While in general I think that the Grenadier Cavalry is a reasonable option as Argentine UU, I think that we can have better options in this regard. As far I remember, this unit is commonly used as UU for Argentina in many Civ mods since when I played Civ III mainly because it was an elite corps during early Argentine wars. My issue here is both the fact that these cavalry corps weren’t that innovative or represented something uniquely Argentinean (in fact, San Martín established the corps in 1812 taking inspiration in his own military service under Spanish forces and from the French Army) and the fact that they have a relatively short existence as fighting force (the original Grenadier Cavalry was disbanded in 1826, being recreated as ceremonial corps in early 20th century). I think that these are not serious issues to scrap the unit altogether, even more considering the good work made in its art, but got me thinking about adding another unit that may represent something more unique about Argentina. Besides, considering that the UP encourages the civ to be at war most of the time, a new UU can fit well here.
Thus, my proposal here is to add another UU called Montonera. The montoneras were irregular armies used during all 19th century that were composed basically of improvised cavalry corps recruited among the cattle herding gauchos. These militias, which were usually led by the local caudillo or big landowner, formed the core of all Argentine fighting forces during both the civil wars (which lasted from the independence until 1880s) and foreign conflicts. They employed mainly hit-and-run tactics until a quick decisive shock could be achieved; their weapons generally were lances and other rustic arms like the boleadoras (an indigenous throwing weapon).
The montonera thus could be a replacement for the Hussar or an earlier option to the Cavalry that should be much more cheaper to produce. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a good available art; the closest looking options were the bandeirante in History Rewritten and this gaucho/adventurer unit in this Argentine/Mapuchean mod here.
If we prefer to use a more modern unit, Argentina has several other options (like Brazil, they developed their own arms industry, although often produced European designs under license) such as the TAM tank and Pucará attack aircraft; another interesting option are prototypes like the Pulqui, a jet fighter developed in the late 1940s. Nonetheless, I don’t think we have easily available art for them.
Leaders:
San Martín favorite civic is currently Revolutionism, but I find this choice kind of weird, since not only he is the Argentine leader during an age before the era that enable this civic but also because, historically speaking, San Martín was a conservative that supported the establishment of a monarchy in Argentina (he even proposed finding a descendant of Inca imperial nobility to crown!). Thus, I propose to change his favorite civic to Nationhood (seems more fitting considering that he was one of the main leaders of the independence war and the civic could more or less represent the chaotic political landscape in Argentina during 19th century) and add Catholicism as his favorite religion (although Argentina constitution guarantee freedom of religion, it is one of the few Latin American countries that have an official state religion even today). For Perón, I think the Revolutionism is somewhat appropriate (giving the impact that Peronism had and still has in Argentina) and likewise the lack of favorite religion (giving the troubled historical relationship between him and the Catholic Church in Argentina).
UHVs:
I guess we all agree that having two very much similar UHVs involving Golden Ages are kind of undesirable. Thus, my first suggestion here is to scrap one, possibly merging them in a single UHV: The Argentine Paradox (same name as UHV1): Have two Golden Ages by 1930 and six by 2000.
I have been cracking my mind in last weeks trying to find new alternative UHVs to replace the third and, being honest, I'm not that settled for any of the ideas that popped in my mind. So, tossing some ideas:
- La Grande Argentina or Virreinato del Río de la Plata or Provincias Unidas del Río de la Plata: be the largest American Civilization by 1880 or 1927 or 1948.
- Rico como un Argentino (Rich as an Argentine): Have the largest GDP or commerce output per number of cities by 1930
- Los argentinos descendemos de los barcos (the Argentines descend from boats): receive more immigrants than any other civ by 1920
Another possibility – though I don’t have any good ideas for UHV name – is to represent the fact that Argentina is the Latin American country that has won most Nobel prizes, which could require generating/settling certain number of distinct Great Persons. Nonetheless, this proposal could make considerably more harder the Golden Age UHV, though it could be included as additional requirement to UHV2 (Tango and Poetry: have legendary culture in Buenos Aires by 1960).
UB:
Honestly, I find the Cold Storage quite an uninspiring UB. Sure, the commercial use of refrigeration to transport frozen meat was crucial for Argentine economic growth by late 19th century, but the technologies required weren’t neither invented by the Argentines nor particularly unique for them (the US and Australia, for example, also were benefited). Sincerely, I think that the Cold Storage should be a regular building available with Refrigeration that gives bonus like extra gold to pasture resources (also, it would fit well if we add a meat industry as corporation).
This leaves the question about which should be Argentine UB. I think about two good candidates: the Estancia and the Tanguería. The first is a large estate usually used for cattle raising common in the pampas (the South American southern steppes) which is similar in many aspects to the US ranch and has deep social and cultural impacts in the Argentine history and society. It could provide bonus for pasture resources and extra experience for cavalry units. On the downside, I’m not sure we have available art for it here, and we should consider that it would be another unique Estate for the Latin Americans like currently both the Colombians and Brazilians already have. The Tanguería is a kind of dance studio/saloon/club specialized in tango shows. It was quite popular in early 20th century and today they are as touristic attractions. Ideally, I think that an Art Nouveau styled building would be perfect (giving that it would represent the tanguerías at their peak), but in practical terms we have the art in CivGold/Rise of Making mods (named as Dance Studio). Could replace the Cinema or being a late-available and improved Theater whose the bonus could be a mix of additional culture output, artists slots and Great Person generation.
UU:
While in general I think that the Grenadier Cavalry is a reasonable option as Argentine UU, I think that we can have better options in this regard. As far I remember, this unit is commonly used as UU for Argentina in many Civ mods since when I played Civ III mainly because it was an elite corps during early Argentine wars. My issue here is both the fact that these cavalry corps weren’t that innovative or represented something uniquely Argentinean (in fact, San Martín established the corps in 1812 taking inspiration in his own military service under Spanish forces and from the French Army) and the fact that they have a relatively short existence as fighting force (the original Grenadier Cavalry was disbanded in 1826, being recreated as ceremonial corps in early 20th century). I think that these are not serious issues to scrap the unit altogether, even more considering the good work made in its art, but got me thinking about adding another unit that may represent something more unique about Argentina. Besides, considering that the UP encourages the civ to be at war most of the time, a new UU can fit well here.
Thus, my proposal here is to add another UU called Montonera. The montoneras were irregular armies used during all 19th century that were composed basically of improvised cavalry corps recruited among the cattle herding gauchos. These militias, which were usually led by the local caudillo or big landowner, formed the core of all Argentine fighting forces during both the civil wars (which lasted from the independence until 1880s) and foreign conflicts. They employed mainly hit-and-run tactics until a quick decisive shock could be achieved; their weapons generally were lances and other rustic arms like the boleadoras (an indigenous throwing weapon).
The montonera thus could be a replacement for the Hussar or an earlier option to the Cavalry that should be much more cheaper to produce. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a good available art; the closest looking options were the bandeirante in History Rewritten and this gaucho/adventurer unit in this Argentine/Mapuchean mod here.
If we prefer to use a more modern unit, Argentina has several other options (like Brazil, they developed their own arms industry, although often produced European designs under license) such as the TAM tank and Pucará attack aircraft; another interesting option are prototypes like the Pulqui, a jet fighter developed in the late 1940s. Nonetheless, I don’t think we have easily available art for them.
Leaders:
San Martín favorite civic is currently Revolutionism, but I find this choice kind of weird, since not only he is the Argentine leader during an age before the era that enable this civic but also because, historically speaking, San Martín was a conservative that supported the establishment of a monarchy in Argentina (he even proposed finding a descendant of Inca imperial nobility to crown!). Thus, I propose to change his favorite civic to Nationhood (seems more fitting considering that he was one of the main leaders of the independence war and the civic could more or less represent the chaotic political landscape in Argentina during 19th century) and add Catholicism as his favorite religion (although Argentina constitution guarantee freedom of religion, it is one of the few Latin American countries that have an official state religion even today). For Perón, I think the Revolutionism is somewhat appropriate (giving the impact that Peronism had and still has in Argentina) and likewise the lack of favorite religion (giving the troubled historical relationship between him and the Catholic Church in Argentina).
rmontaruli
Prince
I have a suggest for Romans.
a) Change their unique power in "Free barracks in every settled or conquered city" instead of that thing of bonus if building is already in Rome.
Because every roman city was settled as barracks (castrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra ), then eventually growed as a city.
b) Remove barracks from first UHV, and add bath: something like "build 5 acqueducts, 4 arenas, 3 forums, 2 baths"
Because whatever we call today "roman ruins" is a piece of an acqueduct, or an arena, or a forum, or a bath...
(here some photos https://www.google.com/search?q=roman+ruins&source=lnms&tbm=isch )
a) Change their unique power in "Free barracks in every settled or conquered city" instead of that thing of bonus if building is already in Rome.
Because every roman city was settled as barracks (castrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra ), then eventually growed as a city.
b) Remove barracks from first UHV, and add bath: something like "build 5 acqueducts, 4 arenas, 3 forums, 2 baths"
Because whatever we call today "roman ruins" is a piece of an acqueduct, or an arena, or a forum, or a bath...
(here some photos https://www.google.com/search?q=roman+ruins&source=lnms&tbm=isch )
Caesar Augustus
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Messages
- 385
Honestly I don't think it would be necessary to replace the UP so much as amend it. Like it could be both the free barracks and the reduced construction costs. I don't think that would be too OP given how much you have on your plate as the Romans.
LikeNothing
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
- Messages
- 116
Fascinating! Based on the Wikipedia article, I think it'd be more fitting to have free Barracks plus Walls. Free Walls also fits well with how Legions can build Forts.
Another addition to the suggestion: since later-spawning civs already get more free buildings in DoC, technically you don't even need explicitly say that this is part of Rome's UP. You can just give it to them implicitly (like Mongolia's raze Stability hit immunity).
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LikeNothing
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
- Messages
- 116
Current Japanese UP should be available (with modifications if needed) to everyone. I can't think of a good reason why Korea, Thailand, Tamils, or Iran for examples couldn't modernize using the same mechanism while Japan could.
Instead, new Japanese UP:
The Power of Honor
Promotion heals units completely; extra
in cities based on level.
I would also change Zaibatsu to give free Merchant (instead of Engineer), and (instead of ) to water tiles instead. That would make it more distinguishable from Assembly Plant, and is a bit more realistic IMO.
In game, extra is mostly converted to . In reality, Zaibatsus were financial and industrial conglomerates that arguably helped Japan industrialize, but had been on balance an impediment rather than help towards innovation.
Instead, new Japanese UP:
The Power of Honor
Promotion heals units completely; extra
in cities based on level.I would also change Zaibatsu to give free Merchant (instead of Engineer), and
(instead of ) to water tiles instead. That would make it more distinguishable from Assembly Plant, and is a bit more realistic IMO.In game, extra
is mostly converted to . In reality, Zaibatsus were financial and industrial conglomerates that arguably helped Japan industrialize, but had been on balance an impediment rather than help towards innovation.
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LikeNothing
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2016
- Messages
- 116
New English UP:
The Power of Common Law
-1 turn of Anarchy when changing Civics; -25% Cities Maintenance
Reasoning:
(1) The -1 turn of Anarchy simulates how Common Law facilitates smooth, gradual shifts in law and society, but not drastic reforms or revolutions.
(2) The current English UP overwhelmingly encourages colonization: it's useless without colonization, and super powerful with colonization. This is a bit too rigid IMHO.
(3) The current English UP makes Administrative Centers useless. I think the placement of Administrative Centers is an interesting and realistic choice for the player.
Royal Exchange should also give a bonus for Tea, no? And Salon for Wine?
Oh and perhaps Man of War should be able to explore rival territory, like East Indiaman and Privateer. And Redcoats should start with Amphibious.
The Power of Common Law
-1 turn of Anarchy when changing Civics; -25% Cities Maintenance
Reasoning:
(1) The -1 turn of Anarchy simulates how Common Law facilitates smooth, gradual shifts in law and society, but not drastic reforms or revolutions.
(2) The current English UP overwhelmingly encourages colonization: it's useless without colonization, and super powerful with colonization. This is a bit too rigid IMHO.
(3) The current English UP makes Administrative Centers useless. I think the placement of Administrative Centers is an interesting and realistic choice for the player.
Royal Exchange should also give a
bonus for Tea, no? And Salon for Wine?Oh and perhaps Man of War should be able to explore rival territory, like East Indiaman and Privateer. And Redcoats should start with Amphibious.
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Hickman888
Prince
Personally, I'm always in favor of giving more information to the player. It allows us to fully understand the mechanics we are dealing with, so that we can craft relevant strategies and, should we fail, we then only have ourselves to blame.
I would be in favor of expanding tech diffusion in the renaissance and up, so that more civilizations can access it and it would be stronger. As it stands now, Britain and America tend to be runaway tech leaders, with the 2nd place civs often being several technologies behind.Current Japanese UP should be available (with modifications if needed) to everyone. I can't think of a good reason why Korea, Thailand, Tamils, or Iran for examples couldn't modernize using the same mechanism while Japan could.
Instead, new Japanese UP:
The Power of Honor
Promotion heals units completely; extra
I would also change Zaibatsu to give free Merchant (instead of Engineer), and
In game, extra
As for your proposed UP...Maybe. As it stands, the Japanese player has from 1600-1940 to accomplish his conquest goals. That's a lot of turns! And saving several turns of healing wouldn't exactly be that necessary when you have such a large timeframe to achieve it. If the Japanese goal somehow encouraged the player to put off conquest until they enter the Industrial era (circa 1860-1870, as in reality), then I think a UP like that would be incredibly useful, as your timeframe would be much shorter, and turns saved from healing from your promotions would be vital. Also, in my Japanese games, none of my core cities really had much of a
issue. All of the luxury resources of east Asia kept them plenty happy.That change to the Zaibatsu I can get on board with. (If it's not too powerful.)
star15389
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2008
- Messages
- 493
I think it would be cool for England to have a Europe-focused, military goal to contrast with the tech and colonization goals it already has and be more fun/interactive than "build an arbitrarily large navy for no reason." I was thinking "ensure there are at least nine civilizations in Europe in 1815 and 1945" to represent the historical English interest not in conquering the continent but keeping it divided, and encourage wars that aren't fights to the death like what you usually have in strategy games. This could have a name like "balance of power" or maybe "splendid isolation" and also potentially be in addition to a naval power condition
Cosmos1985
King
That's a really interesting idea, but it will be a PITA to ensure the AI does not fudge up its stability as a human player, where you rarely can do a lot with regards to their internal stability factors. I imagine quite a few people will find it frustrating to lose out on a UHV just because the Vikings collapsed for the 117th time just before the deadline.
ozqar
King
I think a European balancing act would be super interesting for England - and very historical. I would make the condition allow independents, though, as independent civs would be the kind of States the UK would support (like Belgium). So the UHV could be defined something like: Make sure no continental European power holds more than X% of tiles over their core / historical territory; or no more than X number of cities outside their core.
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