Civilisation Attributes open discussion

[Just an idea]

POLYNESIA
UU: Waka
Cheaper Galley with less Strength and Cargo space, two extra movement and ability to create Fishing Boats. Since Polynesia doesn't have to worry about combat lesser Strength and inability to ferry defenders with Settlers don't hurt. Polynesian ships have to Travel quite a distance so extra movement is good. Ability to create Fishing Boats is helpful especially because Waka are cheaper than Work Boats. They can't make Whaling Boats so they don't completely replace Work Boats.

UB: Mala'e
Monument with +2 and Artist slot. Useful for pushing cultural borders so ocean can be crossed.

UP: Power of Navigation
Cultural expansion on ocean tiles is faster. UHV is probably not doable without this. However its difficult to say how much impact it has since there is little to compare it to.

UHVs
1. Settle two of the following island groups by 800 AD: Hawaii, New Zealand, Marquesas, Easter Island
2. Settle Hawaii, New Zealand, Marquesas and Easter Island by 1000 AD
3. Build the Moai Statues by 1200 AD

Overall Polynesia game is pretty chill puzzle game, where all unique aspects of civilization work together quite well. Something I noticed was that in most games China made contact with Polynesia after discovering Compass. After that it was possible to trade resources with China. Not sure if this is intended.

ROME
UU: Legion and Ballista
Ballista is Catapult with +2 and no city attack bonus. Its not a weak unit, but I didn't find much use for them. Reason for that is how powerful other UU is.

Legion is slightly more expensive Swordsman with +2. They can also build Roman Roads (Roads with extra on Masonry instead of Engineering). This unit is basically cheaper Heavy Swordsman that's available with Bloomery. There is little reason to use anything else. Part of the problem are new spawn mechanics. Since most of the areas Rome is required to conquer are part of Roman expansion zone, Legions have high withdrawal chance when attacking and thus don't need support of siege weapons. I don't think that dropping Legions' strength to 7 would be unreasonable.

Road building ability wasn't that useful. By the time Legions have time to be building roads Rome has discovered Engineering and Roman roads offer little advantage. If overall road movement is increased with larger map, I think Roman roads should retain edge over normal roads until late Medieval or early Renaissance era. In my opinion Roman roads should also be buildable by Roman Workers, and thus be part of Roman UP rather than UU.

UB: Forum
Market with +25% and 2 Stateman slots. I built these since UHV requires them, but Rome doesn't care enough about GP that bonus would make noticeable difference, and Merchants are probably best type of specialist to be running. Forum doesn't give much benefit over regular Market.

UP: Power of Infrastructure
+30% towards buildings that already exist in capital. Quite helpful especially for building goal. Benefits greatly from advanced start points allowing Rome to start with buildings. Between that end Expansion area I think Rome might be overall biggest benefactor of new spawn mechanics.

UHVs
1. Build 6 Barracks, 5 Aqueducts, 4 Arenas and 3 Forums by 100 AD
2. Control the entire historical area of the Roman Empire in 320 AD
3. Be the first to discover Architecture, Politics, Scholarship, Machinery and Civil Service

These were actually easier than I expected. Might be combination of playing on Epic speed and new spawn mechanics. Weird thing is that controlling area of Roman Empire doesn't actually require you to control Levant.

One last thing about Romans. Wonder Aqua Appia gives +2 in all cities. Since Rome has plenty of Health resources and wants to keep its non-core cities quite small, Aqua Appia doesn't really benefit Romans. I think cool effect would be something that would reward you for building Aqueducts, like bonus in its city for each Aqueduct controlled (+1 per Aqueduct would probably get out of hand, maybe something like +1 per Aqueduct.) or probably harder to implement reduction in city maintanance equal to city's food storage capacity. This would give Romans reason to build Aqueducts and Granaries in their periphery.

MAYA
UU: Holkan
Skirmisher with -1 and better withdrawal chance. Available with Smelting and can enter Rainforest and Jungle. Give food to nearest city on victory. 50% withdrawal chance is very strong and since it mostly faces other Holkans reduced strength doesn't hurt too badly.

UB: Ball Court
Cheaper Arena that's available with Calendar and gives +2XP to Melee and Archery units. Happiness gained from cheaper Arenas is very useful with how much food Maya UU and UP generate. Extra XP allows Archery units to start with 2 promotions which is a big help. Bonus XP for Melee units is mostly flavor since Militias aren't beating anything in combat promotions or not.

UP: Power of Long Count
Discovering techs gives extra food before Medieval era. Getting bonus food for doing something you already want to be doing is quite helpful.

UHVs
1. Discover Calendar by 200 AD
2. Build the Temple of Kukulkan by 900 AD
3. Make contact with a European civilization before they discover America

Two first conditions are difficulty wise quite nice. They're pressing enough that one can't just forget them, but still leave bit of wiggle room on Regent. Third UHV is the problem.

Its technically doable by sending unit to Greenland to make contact with European ships when they're exploring waters around Iceland. Such strategy feels like a cheap exploit and shouldn't be required on Regent difficulty.

Sending Caravel to Europe before Euros discover America might be possible on Regent but that would require getting very lucky with Wonders and goodie huts. For me getting Caravel to Europe is manageable around 1450 AD, assuming I don't get hit by conquerors or plague before that. I don't know if this is issue with just slower game speeds (I play on Epic), but Old Worlds tech speed on Medieval era seems too fast. Reformation happens usually around 1300 AD and first Europeans discover America usually between 1350 AD and 1370 AD. Sometimes if Arabia or Persia are doing well they might get there even earlier.

Even if Europe's teching gets slowed down I think 3rd goal should be changed. From 3000BC to 1400AD is a long time and there is no change for player to play around variance in whats happening in Europe. I think giving discovering Europe a static deadline or complete new goal are better options.

 

[Leoreth]

Road building ability wasn't that useful. By the time Legions have time to be building roads Rome has discovered Engineering and Roman roads offer little advantage. If overall road movement is increased with larger map, I think Roman roads should retain edge over normal roads until late Medieval or early Renaissance era. In my opinion Roman roads should also be buildable by Roman Workers, and thus be part of Roman UP rather than UU.

Huh? Roads are double movement until the discovery of Cartography.

UP: Power of Infrastructure
+30% towards buildings that already exist in capital. Quite helpful especially for building goal. Benefits greatly from advanced start points allowing Rome to start with buildings. Between that end Expansion area I think Rome might be overall biggest benefactor of new spawn mechanics.

That's a good point. I think the Roman expansion area is too generous.

One last thing about Romans. Wonder Aqua Appia gives +2 in all cities. Since Rome has plenty of Health resources and wants to keep its non-core cities quite small, Aqua Appia doesn't really benefit Romans. I think cool effect would be something that would reward you for building Aqueducts, like bonus in its city for each Aqueduct controlled (+1 per Aqueduct would probably get out of hand, maybe something like +1 per Aqueduct.) or probably harder to implement reduction in city maintanance equal to city's food storage capacity. This would give Romans reason to build Aqueducts and Granaries in their periphery.

True, I will take it into account for my wonder revisions.

 

[Just an idea]

My thoughts on three more civilizations.

TAMILS
UU: Dharani and Rocketeer
Dharani is a Cog with extra movement and strength. These allow sending invasion force to Indonesia without escorts, so they're somewhat helpful but not super necessary. Because UHV encourages running 0% science, depending on strategy these might come too late to help with UHV.

Rocketeer is Grenadier with +2 and extra collateral damage. Any unique unit with extra is obviously pretty strong, but this is far too late on the tech tree to make any difference for UHV.

UB: Sangam
Library with +25% and 2 Artist slots. Culture modifier gives some help for the first UHV. Artist slots aren't that useful because Tamil UHV mainly calls for Merchants. Because big part of UHV game Tamils will run with 0% usefulness of base features of Library is limited. Overall verdict; this is okay UB.

UP: Power of Thassalocracy
+1 on water tiles. Encourages settling on coast. Quite useful.

UHVs
1. Have 3000 gold and 2000 culture in 800 AD
2. Control or vassalize the Deccan and Srivijaya in 1000 AD
3. Acquire 4000 gold by trade by 1200 AD

I wish trade routes played a bigger role for third UHV. Even with 100% Gold generated by trade routes is small trickle compared to what Great Merchants can get. I think goal would be cooler if it required X amount of trade route commarce generated by 1200 AD.

ETHIOPIANS
UU: Shotelai and Mehal Sefari
Shotelai is a Swordsman with Guerilla promotion. It also doesn't require Iron. Eastern Africa is pretty hilly in the game so Guerilla is helpful but not requiring resources is this units best trait. Very helpful.

Mehal Sefari is a Rifleman with Drill I and Drill II promotions. Too late to be any help for UHV. Unit it self is a minor upgrade to very common unit so its okay on power rating.

UB: Stele
Monument with 2 Priest slots. Great Prophets are required for UHV so nice bonus.

UP: Power of Community
Cities with your state religion always have trade connection with your capital. Encourages to send Scout to Europe before Arabs block you of. Not sure how big of a difference does this make. Do neutral civs you don't have OB with block trade connection or is it just war time. Also worth noting that UP only affects foreign cities. Barbarian blockade could block of Incense from my city on Arabian peninsula even thou the city was Orthodox.

UHVs
1- Acquire three Incense resources by 400 AD
2. Convert to Orthodoxy five turns after it is founded and settle a total of three Great Prophets and build an Orthodox Cathedral by 1200 AD
3. Make sure there are more Orthodox than Islamic cities in Africa in 1500 AD

This gives player quite a bit of freedom to choose how they want to pursue goals, third one especially. Second one's convert to Orthodoxy part can require a bit of luck if it's founded early but on most games one can get a Great Prophet in time.

KOREANS
UU: Hwacha and Kobukson
Hwacha is a Bombard with increased and reduced city attack. Its essentially a Cannon at the cost of a Bombard. On paper it is very strong unit. When going for UHVs I didn't really find use for it. Getting to Gunpowder by Mongol spawn while also beating HRE to Printing isn't manageable. After the Mongols Korean ground forces have little to do. Actually they have little to do even with Mongols. Mongols tend to just ignore Korea and China unless they are weak enough to just be steamrolled.

Kobukson is a Galleass with +2, Drill I and Drill II. Extra strength and first strikes means it completely dominates East Asian seas until Frigates come along. Helpful for Ship sinking UHV.

UB: Seowon
University that available with Paper. Science boosting buildings tend to be quite good and earlier you can get them, more value they generate. Interesting thing is that most UBs that are available early have also reduced cost but not this one.

UP: Power of Education
Specialist slots on Capital count as double. Really cool UP. Encourages player towards running Republic. Not sure how historical that is for Korea, but historical civics don't need to always be most optimal ones.

UHVs
1. Build a Buddhist Stupa and a Confucian Academy by 1200 AD
2. Be the first to discover Printing Press
3. Sink 20 enemy ships

First 2 are mini versions of China's first 2 UHVs. I think one of them being similar to China's is fitting considering China's cultural influence in Korea. I wish other would be more unique one but don't have any idea for replacement right now.

3rd goal doesn't have time limit so it doesn't fell pressing if player can keep up in tech race.

 

[Nyayr]

For Korea, In all honesty if China does well they often find the printing press first, or Holy Rome naturally but China can sometimes be half way in the Renaissance when mongols show up, if they not do stupid things like Invade India or go to war with the Turkestan over that single desert city.

 

[Gahan]

Hello, My thought about Korean UHV is:

1) Palman Daejanggyeong and Gukjagam: Build a Buddhist Chaitya and a Confucian Guozijian by 1200 AD
2) Choe Yun-ui: Be the first to discover Printing
3) Yi Sun-sin: Sink 20 enemy ship

First two of Korean UHV look like small versions of Chinese UHV, so I wanted to change one of them to reflect more about historical role of ancient Korea. Moreover, although Korea was the first to invent metal type printing, compare to Gutenberg's printing press, it didn't bring much changes to Korean society. I think that its impact was too small to be celebrated as Korean UHV. Third one is not bad, but contrary to original history, I had to invade Japanese coasts to achieve this quickly.

So I designed new UHVs for Korea. This is it.

1) Cultural Bridge: Interact 30 times with East Asian Civilizations by 900 AD
2) Harmony of the Thoughts: Build a Buddhist Chaitya and a Confucian Guozijian by 1200 AD
3) Scientific Golden Age: Have a city with the highest research output at 1450 AD, and have the greatest amount of gunpowder-based units at 1600 AD
- Interact includes exchanging technologies/resources, opening borders, and spreading religions by missionaries.
- East Asian Civilizations includes China, Japan and Turkestan.
- Gunpowder-based units includes entire Gunpowder Units, Siege Weapons from Bombard, Naval Combat Units from Galleass, and Hwacha, Geobukseon.

1) Three Kingdoms and Gaya Confederacy, in other words, ancient Korea was a Cultural Bridge between China and Japan. Especially Baekje was friendly with Japan, and they sent Buddhism, Confucianism, Chinese characters, technicians in many fields, and so on to Japan. And of course, these are almost came from China. Korean students learn that it greatly helped the development of ancient Japanese civilization.
- 900 AD is the year that 10 years after the divide of Unified Silla by Late Three Kingdoms, and also the year that only about 30 years left before the fall of Unified Silla and Balhae.

2) First one's theme is in the Three Kingdoms Period, and the third one's theme is in the Joseon Dynasty. Therefore, I thought that the theme of the second one should be set to the Goryeo Dynasty. Original first one fits with this. The state religion of Goryeo was Buddhism, but kings of Goryeo didn't ignore Confucianism. They started Gwageo exam, the civil service examination testing the examinees by Confucian knowledge, and established Gukjagam. For such reasons, I thought that original first one is nice.

3) Sejong the Great is the most respected king among Koreans because of his immeasurable achievements about lots of fields. The creation of Hunminjeongeum(훈민정음, the original form of Hangul) and the development of gunpowder arms are famous stories. He and his scholars at Jiphyeonjeon led 15C Korea to scientific golden age. Also, at early-middle period of Joseon Dynasty, a lot of gunpowder arms was invented like Hwacha, Geobukseon, Chongtong(총통), Bigyeok Jincheonroe(비격진천뢰), and so on. They were of great help to the Korean army and navy during Imjin War, and after the war, the Korean military continued using and improving the gunpowder arms.
- 1450 AD is the last year of Sejong the Great's reign, and 1600 AD is the year that 2 years after the Imjin War.

(Lastly, sorry for my broken English)

 

[ElBiotipo]

Hey! This is my favorite Civ4 mod, it's THE mod I play the most. In fact, I made an account here just because of it (and other civ stuff but yeah)

Since I see you're taking suggestions for civilization attributes, let me give some suggestions for Argentina, my own country! I've been lurking and there have been some good suggestions, so these are also to add to them.

Regarding UHV, I'm not clear if they're supposed to be actual historical victories or more of historical aspirations of the times. I'm going with the second for these:

1. United Provinces in South America: Control all of Argentina's historical area, plus Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia, Peru and Chile, by 1860. This one is clear enough. Avoid Argentina's endless civil wars and create a great nation in South America, and also play with the ambitions of restoring the Inca monarchy some of Argentina's founding fathers had.
   
2. En Unión y Libertad: Have 4 Golden Ages by 1930 and build the Obelisco and Teatro Colón (see below): This isn't too different from the one already in the mod.
3. Justicia Social: Have a university, a hospital, and an electric grid in all your cities, a National Park, and 2500 gold (or a relatively high number) by 2000: Without getting too into it, the main political conflict in XX century Argentina is between various forms of Peronism which favors a statist, protecctionist economy with a welfare state, and various opposition from liberal and conservative sectors that favor a more free market approach. Also, all the well-known economic crises. The challenge is to have buildings that are relatively high to maintain and build in every city while also having a healthy economy.

As for the Unique Building, I don't like the cold storage plant. My proposal is the Public University. Argentina has a very strong tradition of public education, with many famous thinkers and Nobel prizes coming from it, and its national universities are not only regarded as some of the best in the continent, they have been free for all people since 1946... while that's a bit late in game, I think it's still worth to represent. I propose Public Universities would give an extra free specialist besides the scientist one, or if that's too strong, increase the Great People birthrate. The art could be any generic modernish "state building", something like the Russian Research Institute works.

As for unique units, someone pointed out that Granadier Calvary are more of a ceremonial unit though they saw service in the Independence Wars. I would replace them or at least add Gauchos, as a replacement to the Hussar, as they formed virtually all calvary units in the Independence and Civil wars of Argentina. The thing is, I don't know what the bonuses would be (the Llanero unit of Colombia is pretty much what I wanted)... maybe they could be cheaper and have a bonus to movement?

I also don't really like the "Power of the Juntas" thing, but I don't know how to replace it.

And now, wonders! Argentina is the only country in the mod that doesn't have its own wonder Someone proposed Floralis Generica and I love it and its bonuses, and of course if natural wonders are implemented the Iguazú Falls should be shared with Brazil, but I also have a couple more proposals that might be fitting:

El Obelisco: While far from an architectural achievement, the Obelisco is an iconic symbol of Buenos Aires. I propose it would give +5 culture from every Immigrant settled (I'm not sure if this can be coded...) and +1 gold for every food resource controlled. The enabling tech could be Journalism. To make it different from the Washington Monument, someone could put the surrounding plaza and/or an Argentine flag in front of it.

Teatro Colón: Considered the best theatre in Argentina and one of the best in the world, it's also one of Argentina's most iconic buildings. It would give +1 extra happiness for every Theatre and Cinema.

Jesuitic Missions: The Jesuits were very active in the Americas, and their various missions are considered World Heritage sites. It would be nice to have another not only Argentine, but South American wonder. They would give Better Relations with all Apostolic Council Members and/or +1 research for every Priest. The enabling technology would be Academia and it would get obsolete with Representation. It would obviously require Catholicism, but also it MUST be built outside Europe.

Nazca Lines: This is mostly if other pre-Inca Andine civilizations are implemented. It would give +1 gold for every coastal tile (I think there might be already another wonder that does this, but anyways...) It would be enabled by Calendar and obsolete with Cartography, or a similar tech.

Well, that's it! Let me know what you think.

 

[Leoreth]

Bumping this thread to collect more feedback for the 1.18 changes.

 

[Orbii]

I didn't re-read the entire thread, but I second all the feedback I did read and recall (and possible imagine) with respect to:

• The Byzantine UP being sort of pointless and directly competing with UHV1, and also UHV1 being boring (also, personally, I find UHV3 very easy and straightforward, but I clearly get what it's after design-wise and there's nothing inherently wrong with easy goals);
• Indonesia's UP having no player agency and UHV3 having potential for more interesting late game goals;
• Suggestions on China's Golden Age UHV to make it more interesting;
• Korea's UHV1/UHV2 both being mirrors of China's UHVs in a way that reduces the uniqueness of a Korean UHV;
• Britain's shipbuilding UHV being re-jigged to be more flexible and less constrained to Frigates/Ships of the Line (I especially liked the suggestion to have British naval power be more than 2x as strong as the runner-up), and re-timing/re-designing the colonization UHV to reflect the late British empire; and
• Consolidating Argentina's Golden Age UHVs and adding a third goal.

Aside from that, was there discussion on the Turkic and Canadian design?

I think both civs have interesting design (especially the Turkic Silk Road and capital UHVs), but I find the Turkic UHV incredibly hard (based on 600 AD Regent/Normal) and the Canadian UHV simultaneously easily solved and incredibly luck based.

Turkic UHV
I have never gotten anywhere close to winning this UHV. I may just be terrible, but I find myself irrevocably crippled doing the territorial part of UHV1. Even with liberating all the random steppe cities to salvage my economy, I find myself so far behind on technology that conquering the Middle East just devolves into a "zerg rush with Oghuzes and pray you scrounged up enough of them through the UP", and behind enough on tech and infrastructure that the third city for UHV3 just isn't attainable before the Mongols demolish me.

Has anyone else beat this UHV on the intended difficulties? It really is so compelling to me design-wise but in terms of gameplay it has never once managed to click for me.

One fun thing I remember pulling off exactly once was using the random cities to make a box of neutral territory to basically stockpile barbarian Horse Archers and Oghuzes to recruit with the UP as soon as I decided to go conquering. Half the time though they just go west or east and die to Kiev/Byzantium/China.

Canada
As with the Turks, I'd like thoughts from other players on how they play Canada.

Spoiler Canada Experience :

I have not played Canada with the new advanced start mechanics, and I imagine this would affect things considerably. That said, the entire strategy to me boiled down to (1700 AD ANY DIFFICULTY, Normal speed):

1. Set culture slider to 100%, until UHV2 is done, then go to 100% gold. Set all espionage to Britain.
2. Spam Settlers and Workers out of Montreal and Toronto to complete UHV1 while Halifax spams culture to help seed the St. John's flip.
3. Trade for coal ASAP at whatever price.
4. Never open borders until all cities settled.
5. Give into any and every US and British demand to keep up relations.
6. Build one or two spies to repeatedly spread culture in St. John's.
7. Settle everything possible in Canada, starting from Vancouver eastwards.
8. Throw starting techs and money at backwards civs to get them to settle their wars to complete UHV3.
9. Pray/hope/manifest that St. John's flips or Britain offers it out of pity or at a Congress, and that there's enough minor wars to peacekeep.

That was it. I completed even Paragon/Normal with this approach since you're only ever endangered by the US (who you can never beat anyways). I never felt the need to build military units, or to research techs. For the latter bit, this was in part because Canada starts with every tech you need, and because the economic situation honestly sucks to the extent that you fall behind any other developed country extremely quickly. The way I played this, I didn't find it necessary to research anything (which meant I never built Chateau Frontenac or CN Tower, assuming Britain or France hadn't already built them).

I also struggle to see any real use to either the RCMP UB or the Corvette UU. Also, Chateau Frontenac and CN Tower, despite giving effects which would assist in UHV1 and UHV2 are placed awkwardly in the game plan to help --- you don't have the early game production/tech to build Chateau Frontenac while settling the border and building works for the railroad, and CN Tower comes too late in the tech tree to really help on UHV2.

Lastly, I find the UP thematic but the actual effect underwhelming. More Great People is nice, I guess, but it doesn't really do anything for the UHVs, and the player has relatively little control over the immigration event.

In my view, Canada has a reputation as a land of immigrants, being very big, the whole peacekeeping thing, and being very developed. Currently, the last trait is at best only reflected as an implicit goal to UHV3, in that having more techs will let you settle more wars.

Perhaps UHV1 and UHV2 could be mashed together, and a new UHV that actually requires research and building be introduced? Even something like "Control X Oil Wells and Y Uranium Mines", where X and Y exactly equal the resources in historical Canada (no Prairie bias here), combined with some general "Build XYZ [late-game buildings] (e.g. public transportations, recycling centers, supermarkets, parks) and the CN Tower" goal, is a lazy solution that would expressly require the Canada game to include teching and building. That said, including the CN Tower requirement implicates a direct tech/production race against the great powers, which I think Canada will always lose.

 

[brett0007]

Id like to agree with the point on byzantine UP, its the only UP that using actually puts you at a disadvantage if you want to try for a UHV. As a replacement id suggest someting tied to holding or Constantinople itself, considering the level of veneration it held.

 

[Dracosolon]

Ideas for the Constantinople UP:
- Bribing barbarians costs something else: Espionage points (decreased from your invested pools for the target civs) or Spy experience,
- Bribing barbarians costs nothing but is luck-dependent - with your odds increasing the more you have in reserve (for extra fancifulness this could be balanced by every recruited unit costing more than the previous one),
- Your capital has a bonus based on how much you have in treasury, probably or , sort of like the Khazad in FfH2 but not affected by your number of cities - though to avoid this being overpowered, it would have to have diminishing returns and probably expire at some point,
-You get an instant bonus )? ? military units?) every time you hit certain thresholds - first time that you gain 250 , then 500, then 1000, etc.

Alternatively the UHV might get revised. I've started a wishlist of changes to UHVs I'd personally like to see (one can dream). Byzantium's looks like this:

BYZANTIUM:
-Crossroads Of The World: Create 2 Great Spies and 2 Great Merchants by 1000 AD.
-City Of The World's Desire: Make Constantinople the most populous and most culturally advanced city in 1200 AD.
-The Eternal Empire: Settle a Great General in Rome by 900 AD and control three cities each in the Balkans, North Africa and the Near East in 1450 AD.
Credit: Banefire (Great General idea)

 

[DC123456789]

Lastly, I find the UP thematic but the actual effect underwhelming. More Great People is nice, I guess, but it doesn't really do anything for the UHVs, and the player has relatively little control over the immigration event.

Would extra culture on immigration be a more useful UP? It probably fits better thematically than extra GPP as well.

 

[ThreeBlackSevens]

Canada
As with the Turks, I'd like thoughts from other players on how they play Canada.

Spoiler Canada Experience :

I have not played Canada with the new advanced start mechanics, and I imagine this would affect things considerably. That said, the entire strategy to me boiled down to (1700 AD ANY DIFFICULTY, Normal speed):

1. Set culture slider to 100%, until UHV2 is done, then go to 100% gold. Set all espionage to Britain.
2. Spam Settlers and Workers out of Montreal and Toronto to complete UHV1 while Halifax spams culture to help seed the St. John's flip.
3. Trade for coal ASAP at whatever price.
4. Never open borders until all cities settled.
5. Give into any and every US and British demand to keep up relations.
6. Build one or two spies to repeatedly spread culture in St. John's.
7. Settle everything possible in Canada, starting from Vancouver eastwards.
8. Throw starting techs and money at backwards civs to get them to settle their wars to complete UHV3.
9. Pray/hope/manifest that St. John's flips or Britain offers it out of pity or at a Congress, and that there's enough minor wars to peacekeep.

That was it. I completed even Paragon/Normal with this approach since you're only ever endangered by the US (who you can never beat anyways). I never felt the need to build military units, or to research techs. For the latter bit, this was in part because Canada starts with every tech you need, and because the economic situation honestly sucks to the extent that you fall behind any other developed country extremely quickly. The way I played this, I didn't find it necessary to research anything (which meant I never built Chateau Frontenac or CN Tower, assuming Britain or France hadn't already built them).

I also struggle to see any real use to either the RCMP UB or the Corvette UU. Also, Chateau Frontenac and CN Tower, despite giving effects which would assist in UHV1 and UHV2 are placed awkwardly in the game plan to help --- you don't have the early game production/tech to build Chateau Frontenac while settling the border and building works for the railroad, and CN Tower comes too late in the tech tree to really help on UHV2.

Lastly, I find the UP thematic but the actual effect underwhelming. More Great People is nice, I guess, but it doesn't really do anything for the UHVs, and the player has relatively little control over the immigration event.

In my view, Canada has a reputation as a land of immigrants, being very big, the whole peacekeeping thing, and being very developed. Currently, the last trait is at best only reflected as an implicit goal to UHV3, in that having more techs will let you settle more wars.

Perhaps UHV1 and UHV2 could be mashed together, and a new UHV that actually requires research and building be introduced? Even something like "Control X Oil Wells and Y Uranium Mines", where X and Y exactly equal the resources in historical Canada (no Prairie bias here), combined with some general "Build XYZ [late-game buildings] (e.g. public transportations, recycling centers, supermarkets, parks) and the CN Tower" goal, is a lazy solution that would expressly require the Canada game to include teching and building. That said, including the CN Tower requirement implicates a direct tech/production race against the great powers, which I think Canada will always lose.

I've played Canada quite a bit on marathon/regent - aside from the beginning, that's mostly how I play when going for the UHV. The different aspects are
- I focus great engineers at the beginning and also use science, in hopes to get one or both of the Palace of Nations or Statue of Liberty, the first one helps with St. John's (and also stops BS like the UK successfully getting Toronto back for no reason), second one makes it easier to cover 90% without trashing my economy and also helps with st johns by letting me send more great artists in.
- I still do a fair amount of research because it makes it easier to peacekeep, and also having modern units is nice since I make a defensive pact with whoever owns St. John's (Usually Britain) and if I can do so without bad diplomacy, America. Occasionally there is a war and it's good to have modern units to stop invasions, though they are fairly wimpy invasions usually.

The advanced start doesn't change much, it obviously is a nice boost that makes everything a bit easier but doesn't fundamentally change anything.

Most of what you wrote I find true as well, but especially I'd draw attention to these parts:
- Your economy sucks, and you can't keep up in technology in a UHV game. In a non-UHV game, it's possible to be 3rd or 4th place, behind US, UK, and sometimes Russia - but never first unless you like take over the US or something. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. Canada has been a very developed country for quite a while but not really a tech leader, however most other civs can at least tie with the US if played right because they have more time to play with. Thoughts?
- Even if you do research stuff, building the Chateau Frontenac or CN tower doesn't happen because the Chateau Frontenac is just not as useful as other wonders you could build (and you really have few opportunities so you need to choose wisely), and someone else usually builds the CN tower first because your research is bad.
- In the few instances where I've actually built many ships, I've actually deliberately steered clear of corvettes. The fact that they're weaker just can't be made up for by faster production, cause keeping your units alive is a far more viable strategy than wasting hammers pumping out more than you need.

Other things I'd mention would be that I do find the RCMP kind of nice because Toronto often has happiness problems, but that's pretty map dependent so it may not matter on the new one. Plus I don't see any horses in Canada's historical territory, but I haven't figured out how to open the map so I'm relying on the screenshots from Leoreth's post lol.
Also, the UP does nothing. Well, basically nothing. I might be 1 turn ahead on great person points by the end of the game if I'm lucky, but immigration frequency*GPPs per immigration is extremely low to the point of being functionally nothing, in my experience. This may be a marathon thing though.

Suggestion time!

UP: The Great White North. Wait that's already a UHV name. Klondike Gold Rush?
Effect: Resources that can be improved with an oil well or mine in tundra or ice tiles are worked for free.
Possible additional effect: Increased chance for mines to discover a new resource.
Thematic reasoning: A major aspect of Canada's economy is resources, particularly mining, in remote areas. This leads to very important economic locations by very small population centres - something that civ doesn't reflect well. This would allow the economic significance of cold, remote areas to be reflected without it being just silly and magical like Civ 6's Canada power
Gameplay reasoning: It would make northern cities that you normally only build to grab land for the 90% of territory controlled UHV actually viable and not just a drag - this would further have the effect of making the Statue of Liberty just a powerful boost like it is for other countries, rather than basically a necessity if you are playing anything other than for the UHV. This increase in production and commerce for those cities would also help with Canada being underdeveloped by allowing for more buildings in northern cities and increasing their economy for more research. The possible additional effect is just cause the ability seems a bit weak compared to most UPs, so if it did turn out to be too weak then it would work as like a dial that can be fine tuned for balance.

UB: Grand Railway Hotel
Replaces: Railway Station (I actually forget if that's the right name lol. The thing Chateau Frontenac autobuilds)
Effects: Railway Station effects, +4, +1 per culture level in city

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_hotels_in_Canada):
Canada's grand railway hotels are a series of railway hotels across the country, each a local and national landmark, and most of which are icons of Canadian history and architecture; some are considered to be the grand hotels of the British Empire. Each hotel was originally built by the Canadian railway companies, or the railways acted as a catalyst for the hotel's construction. The hotels were designed to serve the passengers of the country's then expanding rail network and they celebrated rail travel in style.
Many of the railway hotels were built in the Château style (also termed the "Neo-château" or "Châteauesque" style), which as a result became known as a distinctly Canadian form of architecture. The use of towers and turrets, and other Scottish baronial and French château architectural elements, became a signature style of Canada's majestic hotels. Architects also used the style for important public buildings, such as the Confederation and Justice buildings in Ottawa.
In later years, the railway companies departed from the Château style for some of their properties, notably with the construction of Winnipeg's Royal Alexandra Hotel in 1906; the Palliser Hotel in Calgary, built in 1914; and the elaborate second Hotel Vancouver, designed in grand Italianate style, unlike any of the previous Canadian railway hotels.
The railways' development role in the construction and operation of large hotels was inaugurated with Canadian Pacific Railway's opening of the Hotel Vancouver on May 16, 1888. This was the first of three railway-owned hotels by that name in Vancouver. Two weeks later, the Canadian Pacific Railway officially opened the Banff Springs Hotel on June 1, 1888. The president of the Canadian Pacific Railway, William Cornelius Van Horne, had personally chosen the site in the Rocky Mountains for the new hotel. He envisioned a string of grand hotels across Canada that would draw visitors from abroad to his railway. Van Horne famously remarked: "If we can't export the scenery, we'll import the tourists."

Reasoning: While I don't think anything is wrong with the RCMP as the UB, I had this idea and considering at least one person didn't think it was useful, I thought I may as well share the idea. Anyway, the biggest thing in terms of historical stuff is that it actually gives a reason to build the Chateau Frontenac, whether you're going for a historical victory or just playing for fun (or for a different victory. Does anyone even do that as Canada?). The boost to culture and commerce makes railways much more useful, helps your culture a great deal, and gives a nice extra boost to commerce which is rather lacking. The commerce boost is especially useful if you're going for the UHV, since then even if you have to spam culture, you're still helping your economy in at least some way. The reasoning behind the effects is that they are seen as an iconic landmark pretty much in every location, so +4 culture, and the +1 commerce per culture level is meant to represent the boost in tourism.



Final suggestion isn't really related to the thread but since we're here, I feel like the Palace of Nations should have less or no effect when the city being demanded is in someone else's core. It's really frustrating and makes no sense for Britain to suddenly get Toronto back ages into a game with no chance of ever getting it back, and it makes getting it as Canada feel like a necessity to prevent that.



Well, that's everything. Side note - I hope I'm not the only one who plays my own country a lot, I'm not that nationalist or anything it's just fun to play it in a civ game and see cities I've actually been to or live in on the civ map

 

[Steb]

I just came back from a visit of Mexico City (and Teotihuacan)! And I am definitely biased now, but I think that the Templo Mayor (more appropriately named Huey Teocalli; art here) should absolutely be a wonder. The temple was just too important to Tenochtitlan to be represented by just the pagan temple or sacrificial altar building. The Aztecs were apparently constantly rebuilding it, so that 7 stages of the temple existed between 1325 and 1519. Seems very wonder-worthy.

And when playing an Aztec game (obviously one of the first things I did after coming back home), it feels somewhat off to not be able to build it, while the other Mesoamerican civs have their own big sacred buildings. The floating gardens don't really cut it. (To be honest they don't really feel like a wonder, and I say this as someone who did visit Xochimilco and enjoy the little colorful boat rides very much.)

There was some discussion in this thread back in 2020 (e.g. here). Many interesting ideas for effects, along the lines of:

• bonuses from fighting, e.g. happiness from defeated units
• enhancing the sacrifice UP, e.g. by increasing chance of enslaving units, or enhancing the sacrifice effects
• espionage bonuses
• war weariness reduction
• effects that represent the double nature of the temple, which was dedicated both to Tlaloc, god of rain, and Huitzilopochtli, god of war (e.g. food + exp)

I'm not sure what works best here. With the floating gardens as a wonder, a food effect isn't super relevant. A sacrifice effect could work, but that's based on the Aztec UP; either it wouldn't really work for other civs who might build the wonder, or alternatively it would give them a mini-Aztec UP, (e.g. if we say increase chance of captured unit by 25%, then for the Maya it would go from 0 to 25, while for the Aztecs it would go from X to X+25) which would make the P less U. But it's worth finding a good effect IMO.

 

[Dracosolon]

I still like ozquar's suggestion of Teotl as a major religion, for which the Templo Mayor could make for a good shrine - especially if there's one more civ in the region with the Toltecs:

I'd like to discuss having Teotl as a major religion. I'm not 100% of which building to replace with which, but the Huei Teocalli could act as either the shrine or the cathedral replacement, we could have the sacrificial altar and the ball court be either the temple or the cathedral replacement. For the monastery building, we could have the calmecac, and Tlamacazqui could be the name for the missionaries. The pyramid of the sun (teotihuacan's) could also act as a shrine, even if it's from an earlier period, if the Huei Teocalli should rather come as a wonder. The reason why I suggest making it a major religion is simply so all these buildings can be shared by the mayans and aztecs alike (and if it ever happens, by other mesoamerican civs). Currently sacrificial altars are only in the aztec civ and ball courts only in the mayan civ, while both of those things were important throughout mesoamerica. Mesoamericans not only sacrificed people, also plenty of other things, so the sacrificial altar shouldn't be necessarily linked to human sacrifices. Human sacrifices were also practiced by the Maya and other states and civs in the region, just not as prominently as by the Aztecs. The ball court, while currently an arena replacement, was really a religious building - ball games were religious ceremonies more than entertainment. As a belief system, teotl was shared throughout mesoamerica, and it had the highly institutionalized structures related to popular education, economic management, ceremonial duties, ruler legitimacy, and organized priesthood that are characteristic of the other major religions in the game. It would act as hinduism, zoroastrianism, and taoism in that it wouldn't leave its home region and I'd say it would be interesting to see human sacrifices allowed only while having teotl as state religion. One of the problems with my suggestion is that the calmecac, the huei teocalli and the tlamacazqui are nahua names/buildings and not pan-mesoamerican things, but I imagine that extending them to other civs is not completely erroneous - step pyramids with temples on top and institutions for priestly education existed everywhere, I just don't know what they were called in other languages.

My main concern would be - what would the Mesoamerican civs' pagan religion be called then?

 

[Steb]

I still like ozquar's suggestion of Teotl as a major religion, for which the Templo Mayor could make for a good shrine - especially if there's one more civ in the region with the Toltecs:



My main concern would be - what would the Mesoamerican civs' pagan religion be called then?

I don't love it; it seems pretty clear that Teotl is closer to Greco-Roman or Egyptian religion than to Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism. Sure there is a gray zone at the boundary between the two categories, but the fact that a pagan religion is shared by several civs is not really an argument; that's also the case for Olympianism, for instance.

 

[Dracosolon]

Sure, but I think the relevant argument there is if we want civs to share specific buildings (maybe even mechanics like sacrifice) besides the basic pagan temple, more than the religion itself. It also allows to complexify the UHV a little through buildings/founding or spreading the religion, which might be of interest with the Toltecs possibly stealing some conceptual space from the others. OTOH it's also fine to just keep it pagan and focus exclusively on wonders.

As far as the Templo Mayor goes, a food/military bonus makes me think of Tributaries, which seems very thematically fitting for the Aztecs anyway but is a bit farther down the tech tree. It's a bit hard anyway to come up with something that would synergize with it though (outside of "cities continue to grow when producing units through food", which is already covered by the Pyramids), especially for a civ like the Aztecs that doesn't have many targets for vassals and wants to maximize food for the UHV.

 

[Steb]

As far as the Templo Mayor goes, a food/military bonus makes me think of Tributaries, which seems very thematically fitting for the Aztecs anyway but is a bit farther down the tech tree. It's a bit hard anyway to come up with something that would synergize with it though (outside of "cities continue to grow when producing units through food", which is already covered by the Pyramids), especially for a civ like the Aztecs that doesn't have many targets for vassals and wants to maximize food for the UHV.

Maybe something like "+2 food [in the city with the Templo Mayor] whenever a unit gets a promotion"?

 

[Publicola]

Alternately, make Huey Teocalli a world wonder that requires paganism (and preferably obsidian as well, to force it to be built in pre-European America). That's how most pagan shrines (Parthenon, Oracle, etc.) are treated in DOC.

 

[Steb]

Alternately, make Huey Teocalli a world wonder that requires paganism (and preferably obsidian as well, to force it to be built in pre-European America). That's how most pagan shrines (Parthenon, Oracle, etc.) are treated in DOC.

Yeah it would require Paganism and Corn, like the other Mesoamerican or South American pre-Columbian wonders

 

[Leoreth]

Obsidian is actually not exclusive to the New World, even though it is a lot more widespread there. The first obsidian source I can think of is near Ethiopia.