Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[tom2050]

Can you link these accounts where it is claimed that adding a shortcut to a non-steam game (legit or not) in the Steam client's game list resulted in the ban of the Steam account in question?

The only games that run "through" Steam are the one that you buy from Steam. Adding a shortcut to an exe in your game list is no different that creating the same shortcut on your desktop or quick launch bar.

Pirates don't need a Steam account since they bypass it completely. Your "warnings" are useful only if they are based on actual proven facts

Here's one... if you think the guy is lying or not is up to whoever reads it. I don't know if he his. No one knows except for the writer. The guy got his account reinstated by Steam, which I have mentioned before. So in the end, it is a good story, and Steam handled itself well.

Seems Steam can run non-Steam games. Here is a related link, the first thing I could find related in Steam forums. So you are wrong there. Please back your 'warnings' up with actual proven facts please. Thanks in advance.

I suppose Pirates don't need a Steam account, I was only saying that dumb Pirates may try to run their pirated games from their Steam account, and get banned for doing it. <--- just to make the statement that a DRM mechanism capable of running non-Steam games through it's processes is probably capable of checking to make sure they are legit, in whatever way it does it.

It doesn't make sense for a Digital Rights Management piece of software to allow pirated games to be run through it's own software, even if all it does is run it from a 'shortcut'. That would send a confusing message to the public.

 

[Avs]

Here's one... if you think the guy is lying or not is up to whoever reads it. I don't know if he his. No one knows except for the writer. The guy got his account reinstated by Steam, which I have mentioned before. So in the end, it is a good story, and Steam handled itself well.

Seems Steam can run non-Steam games. Here is a related link, the first thing I could find related in Steam forums. So you are wrong there. Please back your 'warnings' up with actual proven facts please. Thanks in advance.

I suppose Pirates don't need a Steam account, I was only saying that dumb Pirates may try to run their pirated games from their Steam account, and get banned for doing it. <--- just to make the statement that a DRM mechanism capable of running non-Steam games through it's processes is probably capable of checking to make sure they are legit, in whatever way it does it.

It doesn't make sense for a Digital Rights Management piece of software to allow pirated games to be run through it's own software, even if all it does is run it from a 'shortcut'. That would send a confusing message to the public.

MaxCiv is right. You cannot run a game "through" Steam the way you described. It is common knowledge for Steam users however, to create a shortcut inside Steam's game library to launch any games that you have installed outside of Steam. This is not the same as "running a game through Steam that activates DRM or anything Steam related". It is no different from creating a shortcut for the game. The reason why people do this is to put all their game launching shortcuts in one place.

I'm not going to talk much about piracy but I'll make a brief point here. Piracy on Steam games creates a fake Steam launcher to bypass their "DRM" protocols or fake it out. They won't be caught running their games through a real account or not.

It doesn't make sense to attempt DRM on a product that has no DRM attachments to Steam (Ie. you bought it retail and it doesn't require Steam to install). Simply put, Steam's DRM doesnt apply to anything that isn't installed through Steam. If they found a way to apply DRM to any software installed on your computer without violating privacy rights, copy right laws, and software IP laws to re-write or re-program software that did not contain that original code, then you'd see DRM on every system out there right now because people want to protect their IP and get the money they deserve.

Bottom line: Steam cannot apply DRM to a product that isn't coded to work with Steam. This is why games that are released stand alone and through Steam require separate patches tweaked for each type.

 

[tom2050]

Bottom line: Steam cannot apply DRM to a product that isn't coded to work with Steam. This is why games that are released stand alone and through Steam require separate patches tweaked for each type.

It's impossible for you to make such a claim. Unless you have some facts to back your 'warnings' up.

Like I said, even if it is a shortcut, if it runs in any way via Steam, Steam can be fully capable of running a simple EXE check and you would have no clue that it did so.

It may not also. But if you say it didn't, then you are on some conspiracy theory thing that all those other people are making stuff up that says it did.

Bottom line: You don't know if it does or doesn't. It's possible and you wouldn't know if it did do it.

We can verify this, if you attempt it with various pirated games on your Steam account. If you are so sure, then you should have nothing to worry about. Show some screenshots for proof when you are done.

 

[Avs]

It's impossible for you to make such a claim. Unless you have some facts to back your 'warnings' up.

Like I said, even if it is a shortcut, if it runs in any way via Steam, Steam can be fully capable of running a simple EXE check and you would have no clue that it did so.

It may not also. But if you say it didn't, then you are on some conspiracy theory thing that all those other people are making stuff up that says it did.

Bottom line: You don't know if it does or doesn't. It's possible and you wouldn't know if it did do it.

We can verify this, if you attempt it with various pirated games on your Steam account. If you are so sure, then you should have nothing to worry about. Show some screenshots for proof when you are done.

How about you try this yourself if you are so sure you'll be banned. Oh wait, do you even use Steam? Now I see.

Two can play this game Tom. You say I have no proof yet you counter that your "theory" is solid while slandering mine as a conspiracy. Sounds like the primaries that are going on right now. Bottom line: You have no proof. You don't use Steam. And you wouldn't know how the API works for Steam.

You know there is nothing you can say to back up your own theory much less debunk mine since oh...we both don't have any proof right? If neither of us can back up our own theories, then we don't need to discuss this at all. But I'll only drop my argument (which I believe is better than yours) if you won't attempt to sell your theory where Steam is so advanced that it can apply DRM to games that don't have DRM on it or check whether you have pirated games OR any software as you can create a shortcut to notepad.exe if you wanted to. It's totally going to catch you using a pirated copy of Windows XP.

Edit: Read this https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

 

[tom2050]

I don't know if what the person on that site said is true or not.. but why would he write it (it wasn't a blog, it was like a PC Gamer interview type thing) if it was a complete fabrication.

You are saying that those people are making it up. I am not. They could be, no one knows though.

So the only way to make for sure to know if it's true or not, is to test it out. Will you not test it out because deep inside you know it might be true and there may be a very small chance your account gets banned?

I'm not going to test it, because I don't want to get a ban slapped on me. If you don't believe it does anything like that, you should have nothing to worry about.

I don't even really care that much about this thing, I think it is good that Steam does not allow pirates to run pirated games through Steam (even if they are shortcuts). Don't You Agree? If it did it sends the wrong message. This is a good thing IMO. It's only bad if it happens to people who may have used a no-cd thing or something like that for their real games. <--- Speculation though.

 

[Drakarska]

Actually, I beg to differ with those who say Civ has no educational merits. My 10 yr old was having great difficulty in both his history and geography classes ( having 40 kids in 1 class with only 1 teacher may have been a prob as well), with his grades in both subjects hovering around the "D" range.
I started him on 18 civ earth maps to get him familiar with things, then while he was learning the "settler" difficulty, I contacted his school to see if I couldn't have him use my laptop during his study period class. Come to find out, quite a few of his class mates were having difficulties as well. So a bunch of us parents got together wth the teachers and aides ( and we parents volunteered our time as well) and made study class into "Civ class".
To make a long story short, my son brought up his grade to a A-, and overall point score for his grade of students improved 29%. So in my eyes ( and i'm the dad, so that matters), Civ was instumental in improving his and his class mates grades.
In addition, for his upcoming school year, faculty and parents are agreed to use study class for those 2 subjects with the TAM mod. So you fine gents disclaim all you want to about lack of educational merit to civ in the school system. As for me, I'll take my son's grades.

 

[Avs]

I don't know if what the person on that site said is true or not.. but why would he write it (it wasn't a blog, it was like a PC Gamer interview type thing) if it was a complete fabrication.

You are saying that those people are making it up. I am not. They could be, no one knows though.

So the only way to make for sure to know if it's true or not, is to test it out. Will you not test it out because deep inside you know it might be true and there may be a very small chance your account gets banned?

I'm not going to test it, because I don't want to get a ban slapped on me. If you don't believe it does anything like that, you should have nothing to worry about.

I don't even really care that much about this thing, I think it is good that Steam does not allow pirates to run pirated games through Steam (even if they are shortcuts). Don't You Agree? If it did it sends the wrong message. This is a good thing IMO. It's only bad if it happens to people who may have used a no-cd thing or something like that for their real games. <--- Speculation though.

Like I said, it's been tested by the dozens of pirated games. Nobody needs to prove this to you. If you can imagine Steam checking your games for piracy, you can also imagine pirated games circumventing their check. Just use your imagination. It's not good if Steam modifies code on your computer or does things that you don't agree too. Note that the EULA states it doesnt verify 3rd party games through any
Go read the website you linked again. Half of his quotes from the EULA has nothing to do with his friend's case. He also was unclear what was on the DVD and what exactly happened or what game it was. There just isn't enough examples to conclude that Steam does this (which you've conceded). I'm glad you stated its a speculation, as your previous posts would have indicated that this was a fact (because you found a blog that had something to say about it). If this is the case, I'm sure we can find a lot more examples with way more evidence.


6. THIRD PARTY CONTENT

"Third Party Content" means software and other content provided by third parties, other than Valve, that is designed to work in conjunction with the Steam Software (e.g. mods of Valve game products). In regard to all Third Party Content, Valve acts merely as an intermediary service provider. Valve does not screen Third Party Content available on Steam or through other sources. Valve does not assume any responsibility or liability for Third Party Content.

Note that this means the software has to work with Steam in the first place. If I install Sim City 2000 which has no Steam code at all, nothing is going to happen.

 

[frekk]

6. THIRD PARTY CONTENT

"Third Party Content" means software and other content provided by third parties, other than Valve, that is designed to work in conjunction with the Steam Software (e.g. mods of Valve game products). In regard to all Third Party Content, Valve acts merely as an intermediary service provider. Valve does not screen Third Party Content available on Steam or through other sources. Valve does not assume any responsibility or liability for Third Party Content.

They're only guaranteeing that they don't screen TPC as defined - that is, software designed to work with Steam. Since SC2000 isn't designed to work with Steam, it is explicitly excluded from their guarantee not to screen software. There is no promise there not to screen it; there is only a promise "not to screen Third Party Content" which, as defined, doesn't include non-Steam games.

 

[Acronym2]

It is quite amazing how Steam evokes such a heated argument from both sides of the issue! One would think we are talking about health care or financial regulatory reform.

I guess I'll add my feelings into the mix as well and I think I'll pass on Civ5. If you don't like it then don't buy it, it's just a game. Perhaps if Firaxis/2kGames sees enough of a drop in sales/profits on the new title, they may change their policy and make a compromise for the fans that are apprehensive towards Steam. (It could very well happen as Civ fans are a different breed than DOW, COH or TW fans and Firaxis with Sid Meiers always seemed to be unique as well!)

I don't feel very comfortable with having the installation of the Steam third party software and having to accept a third party Steam Subscriber Agreement as a condition to installing and playing a pc game that I purchased on dvd. It seems to me that this goes well beyond a simple DRM issue and into a consentual monopoly with Steam in order to sell additional products and pc games. (Additonally, the capabilities of the Steam Software and what access it has to my system has always been a concern.)

In example: charging a fee to unlock additional units contained on the Empire:Total War dvd or offering a babylonian Civ5 add-on to those who pre-order a digital download versus a dvd. (Who would otherwise be fool enough to pre-order a digital download?)

Don't misunderstand, I am not bashing the Steam fans and I don't think it's wrong to charge for additional content or for a game company to try to make a bigger profit. I would just prefer the use of Steam to be optional rather than mandatory.

Think about it.........if you've ever purchased an expensive software like Photoshop or 3ds Max, did you have to agree to install anything like Steam!

 

[Fife]

Civ 4 might not be bad for history class... Rfc would be a good example...

 

[mjs0]

Actually, I beg to differ with those who say Civ has no educational merits. My 10 yr old was having great difficulty in both his history and geography classes ( having 40 kids in 1 class with only 1 teacher may have been a prob as well), with his grades in both subjects hovering around the "D" range.
I started him on 18 civ earth maps to get him familiar with things, then while he was learning the "settler" difficulty, I contacted his school to see if I couldn't have him use my laptop during his study period class. Come to find out, quite a few of his class mates were having difficulties as well. So a bunch of us parents got together wth the teachers and aides ( and we parents volunteered our time as well) and made study class into "Civ class".
To make a long story short, my son brought up his grade to a A-, and overall point score for his grade of students improved 29%. So in my eyes ( and i'm the dad, so that matters), Civ was instumental in improving his and his class mates grades.
In addition, for his upcoming school year, faculty and parents are agreed to use study class for those 2 subjects with the TAM mod. So you fine gents disclaim all you want to about lack of educational merit to civ in the school system. As for me, I'll take my son's grades.

Good for you!

We had a similar very positive experience with Civ and our kids at an even earlier age.
Our son and daughter were 5 and 4 respectively when Civ4 was released (they are now 10/9). They saw me playing through the tutorial (did I just embarass myself?) and wanted to try it. They immediately fell in love with the game and wanted to play it as much as we would let them. At first they just messed about playing on Settler and doing wacky things with the Worldbuilder, and we would read popups and other messages for them.
After a while they started really playing the game and reading all the prompts for them began to get old, so...we told them we were not going to do it anymore and that if they wanted to play Civ they would have to:

1. improve their reading...(the results were almost instantaneous!)
2. Once their reading was good enough pick a different civilization or technology every game, read the civilopedia entry for it, and then do a report on it based on Civ and other sources.

Within a couple of years they had both developed a real love for history and they are both now voracious readers with reading comprehension several grades (4-5) above their ages.

I can't credit Civ for all of this of course but as a motivator and source of inspiration for their imaginations it certainly played a major role.

To this day we regularly play LAN-based coop games as a family.

 

[tom2050]

Think about it.........if you've ever purchased an expensive software like Photoshop or 3ds Max, did you have to agree to install anything like Steam!

Good point, 3ds Max and Photoshop won't use Steam because they don't want to lose potential customers by having some weird 3rd party thing bobbing all over the place in the background, running processes and data-mining your graphics habits. But then you could chat with your 3ds Max friends! Oh the joy!

 

[frekk]

Good point, 3ds Max and Photoshop won't use Steam because they don't want to lose potential customers by having some weird 3rd party thing bobbing all over the place in the background, running processes and data-mining your graphics habits. But then you could chat with your 3ds Max friends! Oh the joy!

Plus those are used commercially, and no business in its right mind would ever invest in capital that could be revoked by a third party.

 

[PieceOfMind]

It is quite amazing how Steam evokes such a heated argument from both sides of the issue! One would think we are talking about health care or financial regulatory reform.

I guess I'll add my feelings into the mix as well and I think I'll pass on Civ5. If you don't like it then don't buy it, it's just a game. Perhaps if Firaxis/2kGames sees enough of a drop in sales/profits on the new title, they may change their policy and make a compromise for the fans that are apprehensive towards Steam. (It could very well happen as Civ fans are a different breed than DOW, COH or TW fans and Firaxis with Sid Meiers always seemed to be unique as well!)

I don't feel very comfortable with having the installation of the Steam third party software and having to accept a third party Steam Subscriber Agreement as a condition to installing and playing a pc game that I purchased on dvd. It seems to me that this goes well beyond a simple DRM issue and into a consentual monopoly with Steam in order to sell additional products and pc games. (Additonally, the capabilities of the Steam Software and what access it has to my system has always been a concern.)

In example: charging a fee to unlock additional units contained on the Empire:Total War dvd or offering a babylonian Civ5 add-on to those who pre-order a digital download versus a dvd. (Who would otherwise be fool enough to pre-order a digital download?)

Don't misunderstand, I am not bashing the Steam fans and I don't think it's wrong to charge for additional content or for a game company to try to make a bigger profit. I would just prefer the use of Steam to be optional rather than mandatory.

Think about it.........if you've ever purchased an expensive software like Photoshop or 3ds Max, did you have to agree to install anything like Steam!

I feel a bit the same way.

When you're getting free software, it's quite understandable to be presented with advertisements from the interface. Take a free anti-virus package like AVG for example. Their ads are not too intrusive but they are there. You wouldn't find many people complain about those.

However, take an expensive game, in fact the most expensive game I've ever bought (if I am to buy it at release) and being presented with advertisements in the game that go beyond the usual intro screen or credits, only cheapens the experience of that software IMO.

I'm expecting to see with the introduction of DLC in civ5, the possibly gradual introduction of annoying in-game advertisements asking us to shell out more.

EDIT Just to be clear, none of us should forget that one of the biggest advantages Steamworks offers to developers/publishers is that it provides a framework for microtransactions for DLC. From Firaxis/2K point of view, this is almost certainly not being ignored. It could very well be one of the main reasons we are going to be required to use Steam <- that is my speculation.

 

[Drakarska]

Civ 4 might not be bad for history class... Rfc would be a good example...

Was thinking about that until the curriculum was announced for the upcoming school year. Looks Like Mesopitamia. So TAM's maps should work fine.

 

[Acronym2]

EDIT Just to be clear, none of us should forget that one of the biggest advantages Steamworks offers to developers/publishers is that it provides a framework for microtransactions for DLC. From Firaxis/2K point of view, this is almost certainly not being ignored. It could very well be one of the main reasons we are going to be required to use Steam <- that is my speculation.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too. All the smokscreening about DRM, updates, fan accessability,Mods, etc. is just good public relations. It's a profit making decision and I don't fault Firaxis/2kgames for wanting to up the profit margin. Ever since the economy went bad the corporate world has been quite active in finding new ways to skim us for a little more. (LOL)

 

[Svip]

Think about it.........if you've ever purchased an expensive software like Photoshop or 3ds Max, did you have to agree to install anything like Steam!

Now you are comparing apples with Thursdays. That ain't gonna work. Photoshop and 3Ds Max are high end business applications, used by big corporations. Which is where the developers and distributors of these applications makes their money. But more importantly, these applications are tools.

Unlike games, which are games. It's a completely different ball game in the industry. Why would a big corporation buy games? They wouldn't! That is not how they make money.

You see, and you may find this interesting, games are actually software intended for regular consumers, not for companies. They fall under the 'entertainment industry'. Therefore, their targeted consumers are thus regular consumers like you and I.

Now, while a corporation can purchase in huge sums a lot of licences from Adobe or whatever to install software on all their machines, which will most likely have a guy from Adobe helping them do, the same cannot be said about games and regular consumers.

The idea of Steam is to distribute these products more easily to people. Of course, you can always argue whether this is a good or a bad thing, but that's the intention. Get the games out as quick as possible with as little cost as possible. Increase coverage and decrease cost. It's just money in the bank. Much of the Internet is a replacement for physical media. It just had to be physical media first, because the Internet had to catch up in terms of speed and stability.

So giving people Steam grants them an ability to get this content faster. Steam is intended as a service.

Oh and, as for Steam 'verifying' non-Steam games, I have my most sincere doubts. In order for that to be possible, Valve would have to craft a hash for every possible game for every possible version that someone could add as a non-Steam game to Steam. That... makes no sense. I am certain that Valve has better things to do than police other people's software. They aren't earning a penny doing so.

For that reason, I am going to call bullocks on the link provided earlier by tom.

 

[Acronym2]

Now you are comparing apples with Thursdays. That ain't gonna work. Photoshop and 3Ds Max are high end business applications, used by big corporations. Which is where the developers and distributors of these applications makes their money. But more importantly, these applications are tools.

Unlike games, which are games. It's a completely different ball game in the industry. Why would a big corporation buy games? They wouldn't! That is not how they make money.

You see, and you may find this interesting, games are actually software intended for regular consumers, not for companies. They fall under the 'entertainment industry'. Therefore, their targeted consumers are thus regular consumers like you and I.

Now, while a corporation can purchase in huge sums a lot of licences from Adobe or whatever to install software on all their machines, which will most likely have a guy from Adobe helping them do, the same cannot be said about games and regular consumers.

The idea of Steam is to distribute these products more easily to people. Of course, you can always argue whether this is a good or a bad thing, but that's the intention. Get the games out as quick as possible with as little cost as possible. Increase coverage and decrease cost. It's just money in the bank. Much of the Internet is a replacement for physical media. It just had to be physical media first, because the Internet had to catch up in terms of speed and stability.

So giving people Steam grants them an ability to get this content faster. Steam is intended as a service.

Oh and, as for Steam 'verifying' non-Steam games, I have my most sincere doubts. In order for that to be possible, Valve would have to craft a hash for every possible game for every possible version that someone could add as a non-Steam game to Steam. That... makes no sense. I am certain that Valve has better things to do than police other people's software. They aren't earning a penny doing so.

For that reason, I am going to call bullocks on the link provided earlier by tom.

Look, I have Photoshop........a great many copies of such software (3ds Max, Photoshop, etc.) are owned by individual artists, architects, etc. as well as by comercial entities. Nobody from Adobe installs anything, you buy a dvd in a box or a digital download and install it yourself just like a pc game. (and yes, I own a registered license for my copy of the software which, unlike a Steam Powered Game which grants no licensed ownership, does not require the download and use of any third party software.)

What are some of you guys? Employees of the Valve Corporation? You take any dislike or critique of Steam and act as if it was heresy. Why?

 

[mjs0]

Actually Photoshop and 3ds Max are relatively inexpensive tools for big corporations.

Truly high-end business applications that store and process the thousands of transactions per second that large corporations need are so expensive that, guess what, companies normally don't buy them, or the hardware they run on, outright...they lease them!

As recently as 2007, around 70% of all enterprise data was stored on IBM mainframes, and the vast majority (80%+) of those systems (hardware and software) are leased not owned.

Many of the business practices people complain about with Steam are nothing new in the business world, for example:
You get to pay for license manager software that ensures you are keeping to your license agreements and that generates audit reports to charge you more if you exceed your license,
Those helpful IBM mainframes have for many years had a feature that 'calls' IBM if the mainframe believes something is wrong!
Oh, and I remember when IBM would 'sell' you an upgrade to your mid-range system and the upgrade consisted of an SE coming out to your site and removing a wire, because the system you'd paid for and been running for years already included the additional processors you just hadn't been licensed to use them.
(I think that might just be worse than DLC you have to pay for later being shipped on the game disc! )

 

[Svip]

Look, firstly I have Photoshop........a great many copies of such software (3ds Max, Photoshop, etc.) are owned by individual artists, architects, etc. as well as by comercial entities. Nobody from Adobe installs anything, you buy a dvd in a box and install it yourself just like a pc game. (Before you reply....yes, I own a registered license for my copy of the software which, unlike a Steam Powered Game which grants no licensed ownership, does not require the download and use of any third party software.)

Good for you. But Adobe don't really earn money from individuals like you with Photoshop. They have no real interest in using something like Steam. It doesn't make sense.

Secondly.....what are some of you guys? Employees of the Valve Corporation? You take any dislike or critique of Steam and act as if it was heresy. Why?

I don't like people spreading falsehoods or truths with modifications. I can see where people are coming from with some of their criticism against Steam. And I fully respect that. For instance, I agree with the notion that Steam should be one of the distribution channels, but it doesn't hurt me that much.

I have even argued against some of the Steam lovers if they too are spreading inaccuracies. I'll admit I use Steam myself, but only for the convenience. And well, yeah, I have so far not run into any issues with it yet. Sure, it has had its hickups, but so could the games have had. I realise that Steam just introduces another mix of possible errors. But nothing's perfect.

Thirdly, Steam gets paid in many ways.....one of them is for providing the activation and digital rights management service for their client game companies. How could you possibly think they "aren't earning a penny doing so"?

Because it hardly makes sense to me. Let's for sake of argument assume I had gotten my hands on a pirated copy of a game that was not distributed on Steam. So would the publisher of this game, with their own introduced DRM-scheme, ask Valve for help to crack down on pirates?

And in the unlikely event, that the answer is yes (I don't really think that the publisher is willing to invest that much in anti-piracy measures as it has with its own DRM-scheme and given that if someone figured it out, everyone would just say 'don't add this game to Steam, then you are good' and the invest would be pointless), how is Valve going to tackle this? They are now going to verify the legality of a non-Steam game. A game they do not technically support. In order to verification on it, the game either needs to use the Steamworks API (which it won't in this case) or have the original developers hand them actual EXE-files of the game.

And then add to that, there are different versions, if an honest customer is using an older version, should he not be able to continue to do so? So there would be so many individual variables to check for, that Valve simply would not have the capacity and the time.

In short, Valve has no interest in EXE checking non-Steam games. It makes no technical sense or financial sense.