Civilization 5 Rants Thread

[Truthy]

Sorry but the 99.39 figure is misleading.

It's unrealistic for someone to buy all DLCs but deliberately buy them all separately. For instance no one would buy both the Korea and Ancient Wonders DLC for $5 each if they can get the two for $7.50. There are similar bundles for the 4 map packs and the explorer's map pack + Denmark DLC. The true non-discounted figure is closer to $91.90.

If you were to wait for a 66% sale on Steam (which happened on July 21 but obviously not including the Korea+Wonders DLC), that'd make the grand total of

34% of $91.90 or about $31.25.

Even with such ideal sales, the developers business model of selling less for more is abhorrent to say the the least. I can scarcely imagine why people would prefer to purchase small amounts of content for greater prices as opposed to getting more for a reasonable value. And the notion that "if you don't like it then don't buy it" doesn't really work because the success of DLC probably dissuades them from releasing a substantial expansion. The thought process at Firaxis must be "DLC is so profitable, why bother wasting so much time on an expansion?"

 

[Roxlimn]

Thormodr:

I'm comparing based on the time release. We already have nearly all the DLC on sale at some periods, and it hasn't been that long since release. At a similar time frame, Civ IV's Warlords was selling at full price.

Of course, this IS the rant thread. Feel free to rant away.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Even with such ideal sales, the developers business model of selling less for more is abhorrent to say the the least. I can scarcely imagine why people would prefer to purchase small amounts of content for greater prices as opposed to getting more for a reasonable value. And the notion that "if you don't like it then don't buy it" doesn't really work because the success of DLC probably dissuades them from releasing a substantial expansion. The thought process at Firaxis must be "DLC is so profitable, why bother wasting so much time on an expansion?"

And what will you say when Firaxis release an expansion?

 

[Truthy]

This is particularly so because unlike in Civ 4, modern combat in Civ 5 actually works. Past Medieval (and particularly Nationhood) in Civ 4, combat just became incredibly broken. We're talking hundred unit stacks, here.

The process of acquiring more units as the game advances is still in effect in civ v, FYI. It is still entirely plausible for a colossal carpet of doom to arise by the medieval era which leads to the loathsome and tedious combat of Civ V we all know and love. I am not referring to those rare cases in which the entire continent will be home to a unit; but the much more frequent armies of 10+ which even at small numbers such as those are ridiculously hard to maneuver. Even with skill at the game when it comes to tactics, the amount of time and effort required for small actions (such as simply moving your army without even entering combat) are appalling. 1UPT makes the game anything but intriguing.

 

[Truthy]

And what will you say when Firaxis release an expansion?

I will run through the streets singing for it will be a joyous day. They will have reaped their profit and milked the gamer but alas, we will have our expansion but not a dime left.

By that point, how much will civ v have cost? $150? $200?

Unfair comparison. You are comparing DLC that you got on sale with an expansion that is full price.

To make a proper comparison, you'd need to have the cIV expansion on sale as well.

Looking at it in the proper way, the DLC is still a rip off. You get less content and still have to pay more.

It's a rip off compared to Warlords and it's a horrendous rip off compared to Beyond the Sword.

2K Games/Firaxis know exactly what they are doing. They are milking this game for everything it's worth.

Right on spot.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I will run through the streets singing for it will be a joyous day.

So you and I have something to look forward to.

Given civ5's relative success in the market (i.e. sales) I think it'd be crazy of 2K/Firaxis not to release an expansion.

Civ 5 + the DLCs I've bought have cost me all up about $60 so far (EDIT... and that includes getting the game at release). IIRC that's what I paid for civ4 at release. If there's an expansion I'd expect it to be somewhere between $20 and $40. It depends how big the expansion is.

 

[Roxlimn]

Derrick CB:

If you have significantly more than 10 units on a Standard map, you're doing it wrong. 10's pushing it. I consider a landing force of 8 units to be positively humongous.

The reason is that 1 UPT combat makes placement as valuable as actually having units. There are only 4 or 5 spaces on the hex tile map where Artillery (!) can be situated effectively on an attack, and often not even that many. Any Artillery pieces in excess of that just uses up maintenance and hammers, and they suck up XP that ought to be more concentrated in the elite units, or should be upbuilding new units.

In general, I can conquer the world with 6 units. Certainly, the hammer prices on the units and the maintenance makes building more than that a considerable challenge. Consider how large a space 6 units takes on the strategic map. Six units is a fairly sizable army, in any Era!

The only exception is when you start making sea units and air units, and those add another, considerable wrinkle to modern combat, without breaking it the way Civ 4 combat just goes all to hell.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Civ 5 + the DLCs I've bought have cost me all up about $60 so far. IIRC that's what I paid for civ4 at release. If there's an expansion I'd expect it to be somewhere between $20 and $40. It depends how big the expansion is.

It's probably gonna be on the expensive side, based on the fact that it contains a lot of stuff... Half of which you will already have bought as DLC... Pay too much! Twice!

Derrick CB:

If you have significantly more than 10 units on a Standard map, you're doing it wrong. 10's pushing it. I consider a landing force of 8 units to be positively humongous.

I tend to agree, you can play with very few units. Problem is that makes your power rating low and the AI's bloodthirstiness makes it declare war on you constantly.

 

[Roxlimn]

SimonL:

I only play on King, but I've not had that problem. I've actually had games where I had Friendship with another Civ from start to finish, and games where I never went to war. Arguably, the problem is specifically with the Deity settings, and not with the AI in general.

 

[PieceOfMind]

It's probably gonna be on the expensive side, based on the fact that it contains a lot of stuff... Half of which you will already have bought as DLC... Pay too much! Twice!

Honestly I don't expect the to-date DLC to be included in the expansion (if there is one). However no doubt there will be a bundle. I know you're plenty familiar with Steam. How often is it that an expansion is released for a game that includes all previous DLC? I'm not talking goty editions either.

 

[Truthy]

So you and I have something to look forward to.

Given civ5's relative success in the market (i.e. sales) I think it'd be crazy of 2K/Firaxis not to release an expansion.

Civ 5 + the DLCs I've bought have cost me all up about $60 so far. IIRC that's what I paid for civ4 at release. If there's an expansion I'd expect it to be somewhere between $20 and $40. It depends how big the expansion is.

You will have to level that down to sales too in order to properly compare the value. Because you got DLC at a cheaper price than others doesn't make them a better value when compared to the content of an expansion.

Derrick CB:

If you have significantly more than 10 units on a Standard map, you're doing it wrong. 10's pushing it. I consider a landing force of 8 units to be positively humongous.

I enjoy early combat when you will usually have 3-5 units in an army. However, this ceases to be a reality by the time the AI start pumping out units (cheating AI tisk tisk ) in the medieval era. They will attack you entirely on the grounds that you have a small army. This alone will suffice to build a fairly large defense force and then you require more troops for conquest. The figure of 10 units falls into the category of hair ripping. Smaller figures can still easily fall into the category of frustrating.

The reason is that 1 UPT combat makes placement as valuable as actually having units.

1UPT also makes nothing a very valuable asset. Additional troops kill your will to play and damage your economy as does building and improving.

In general, I can conquer the world with 6 units.

It is a mind boggling difference between 6 and 7 units, isn't it?

The only exception is when you start making sea units and air units, and those add another, considerable wrinkle to modern combat, without breaking it the way Civ 4 combat just goes all to hell.

At least stacks of doom didn't constrain your entire empire and the entire concept of building an empire.

 

[OmegaKabob]

I hate and so I'm bloody mad how Aspyr is so slow on patches. People with Macs don't even have the June patch! Come on Aspyr, pick up the god dang pace! Korea probably won't even be available to play until, November! That's after when school starts for me!

 

[Roxlimn]

DerrickCB:

I enjoy early combat when you will usually have 3-5 units in an army. However, this ceases to be a reality by the time the AI start pumping out units (cheating AI tisk tisk ) in the medieval era. They will attack you entirely on the grounds that you have a small army. This alone will suffice to build a fairly large defense force and then you require more troops for conquest. The figure of 10 units falls into the category of hair ripping. Smaller figures can still easily fall into the category of frustrating.

The AI only cheats significantly at the higher settings. Arguably, the Deity AI is borked because it's declaring war when it shouldn't be, because its production bonuses are adversely affecting diplomatic behavior that's meant to be functional at normal settings. See? Phrased this way, this particular "rant," could make its way into a Deity AI patch, or be acceptable outside this thread.

Again, just a suggestion. You can keep ranting here if that's what you really want.

Apart from that, you can keep building troops and keep them as garrison without cost if you have the right SP. This meets the AI's requirements, and you still only need to mobilize 6 to 8 troops to completely maul it. The AI is no less constrained than you by the hex grid. Any troops it can't position well is essentially useless.

Finally, I can't see how anyone can find moving 8 units (at the highest) a chore, when you routinely had to Draft upwards of 30 units manually in Civ4 to assemble anything like a reasonably sized army. There's a Go-To function so you don't have to manually command movement across large distances. Are you using it?

1UPT also makes nothing a very valuable asset. Additional troops kill your will to play and damage your economy as does building and improving.

It is a mind boggling difference between 6 and 7 units, isn't it?

I'm sorry, I don't get the gist. Are you implying that you don't like 1UPT fundamentally?

At least stacks of doom didn't constrain your entire empire and the entire concept of building an empire.

Neither does 1 UPT.

I've said this to you before, and it's a charge no one has yet answered. Changing the value of Granary to 1000 hammers affects nothing except that one building. Changing the hammer values of units relatively speaking should not (and does not) affect the hammer values of buildings.

 

[PieceOfMind]

You will have to level that down to sales too in order to properly compare the value. Because you got DLC at a cheaper price than others doesn't make them a better value when compared to the content of an expansion.

But civ4 never had DLC in between expansions.

To make the comparison as fair as possible, one would look at the on-sale price of all DLC at or around the time the civ5 expansion is released. If you buy DLC regularly for civ5 then I don't think the comparison against the no-DLC model of civ4 makes much sense.

For people who must buy everything, including DLC, the day it is released... yeah of course they're going to pay a premium, and that premium may end up being a bit more or even significantly more than what they would have paid for civ4.

Those with more patience can easily get 66% or more off the price of the game and DLC. So the early adopters are subsidising the purchases of the more patient customers. This is my attitude towards people who pre-order games as well. Personally I think pre-orders are almost always pointless from the customer's point of view, but there are plenty of people who gobble them up and I don't mind that because it makes the game more likely to be profitable (a success) without as much input from me.

The DLC may be expensive and "milking" customers, but that's the choice of those customers. Us who wait can get the stuff for a lot cheaper, so we win.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Honestly I don't expect the to-date DLC to be included in the expansion (if there is one). However no doubt there will be a bundle. I know you're plenty familiar with Steam. How often is it that an expansion is released for a game that includes all previous DLC? I'm not talking goty editions either.

I have over a hundred games on Steam, I'm not home right now but I can't think of any game that has DLC and an expansion pack too Expansion packs are really a concept on the way out it seems. Wait let me think...

Tropico didn't have DLC for instance, as far as I know, but it did have an expansion...

Um maybe Total War? Empire Total War; Warpath was a mini expansion that didn,t include the previous DLC I think (individual unit sets). It might be possible for Civ 5 to do this. But it seems like it's really starting to make it complicated to have different people play the same savegame files and such. I don't know. I won't blame them for including the old Civs in the expansion (if there is one) since I'd probably be there complaining if they DIDN'T However, I do hope it doesn't artificially bloat the price of the x-pack or reduce the actual new stuff that is in the expansion because they would consider the old civs as part of it.

Frankly though, on Steam, most games with DLC just get an eventual GOTY edition (e.g. Fallout 3, Borderlands)

SimonL:

I only play on King, but I've not had that problem. I've actually had games where I had Friendship with another Civ from start to finish, and games where I never went to war. Arguably, the problem is specifically with the Deity settings, and not with the AI in general.

I wish Defensive Pacts lasted for long too. I don't understand how they work, it's kind of annoying that they are "expended" as soon as a war declaration happens, and you have to re-sign them. Also it seems the AI has a tendancy to constantly cancel them, and then allowing you to re-sign them the turn after, and cancelling, etc. Don't accept them if it just gets canceled the turn after? Maybe I misunderstood something.

 

[Roxlimn]

SimonL:

It's part of the game that you can plausibly sell things like Defensive Pacts. Renewal allows you to renegotiate prices or charge money again (or be charged). Granted, I think it's broken that you can freely sell useless Open Borders for 50 bucks every 30 turns...

I've never signed Defensive Pacts with anyone that I cared about. That mechanic probably needs something of an overhaul.

 

[Rub'Rum]

So basically "defensive pact" is a 'good' that doesn't change your relationship with the AI? So the only alliance-type thing we get is a declaration of friendship?

 

[Roxlimn]

Pretty much. As I said, I never signed any DP that I actually cared anything about. DoFs, yes, DPs, no. That mechanic needs some serious looking into.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

So basically "defensive pact" is a 'good' that doesn't change your relationship with the AI? So the only alliance-type thing we get is a declaration of friendship?

And even that has it's flaws, one minor move, one wonder they wanted, one tile they wanted, and one enemy of yours that is their friend, and then boom, DENOUNCED!

 

[Tatran]

CivWorld had an update today.
Harvest time went down from 1 hour to 1.5 hours.
It wasn't really important to mention this in the update announcement earlier.
Well, 2k Firaxis do know now. The community isn't very happy with this change.

It's totally disgusting the way they release unfinished, incomplete products and start nerfing them because what's left is unbalanced.