Civilization elimination thread

[GAGA Extrem]

I'm using you to upvote Carthage and downvote the Netherlands.

Carthage needs to have a map with ocean, not very map dependent, since ecen Pangea has a massive coast to work with (assuming you build ONLY coastal cities, which is insane anyway). You'll almost always play maps with oceans and get something from the UA.

The Netherlands require very specific terrain for the polder, lots of coastal cities to make the UU worth it, and different nearby resources to make the UA decent.

Who is a slave to the map?

But how many decent coastal spots can you find where that harbour is really useful? The Netherlands have at least a decent UA that allows you early expansion when selling your luxuries - but I have to admit: They are not much (if any) better than Carthage and probably my next downvote.

 

[woodshadows]

Was that the purpose, or was it meant to allow extra lux trades to keep happiness up?



No, the exploit lies in using the civ's UB to, indeed, exploit the AI's tendency to hoard rather than use its gold. If the AI were programmed to better-use its gold rather than hoard unnecessary quantities, you wouldn't be able to reliably trade luxes for gold (and as it is I often find myself short of civs with the gold for RAs on Immortal, let alone the gold to trade for multiple luxes).

And although Civ is a single-player game first and foremost, it shouldn't be neglected that the civ doesn't work when you don't have AI opponents, or on duel or other small maps where you have very few, and it can be very heavily contingent on starting position and particularly who it starts close to - if most neighbouring civs have the same luxes, it's no use. If you have multiple luxes you can't shift (as typically happens to me in most games on all map sizes), the bazaar gives you no useful benefit. None of which is consistent with Arabia being the "strongest civ". Like Spain stumbling on El Dorado, it can be gamebreaking when it works, but look where Spain is now.

To me it seems almost like the CiV programmers set a bar on how much gold the AI is allowed to spend per turn upon certain things, so while there's no hard limit set upon expenditures for luxuries they can't just spend their gold every turn to produce a new unit in every single city - which would make them unstoppable against a human player on the higher difficulty levels. I'm pretty sure it wasn't an oversight to cause the AI to over-value luxuries which they don't really need, I believe it was specifically rendered that way to provide the human player with flexibility/incentive to grab luxuries. Granted it's a simplistic system which in the hands of Arabia or the Dutch can be overpowering given the right circumstances, I still don't think it's an exploit of faulty programming.

Also, unless you are not expanding beyond Mecca you will almost certainly - if you plan ahead - settle your next city beside a luxury you don't already have a copy of and the way the maps are made generally luxuries are lumped together in certain areas to facilitate trade opportunities. Even without the bazaar though, the Camel Archers alone can win you an empire without any trouble, with the +1 movement they received they are just as good if not better than keshiks and after you carve yourself out a sizeable empire that +1 gold traderoute UA will provide a bit of extra gold and if you make it far enough you'll have plenty of oil to upgrade the camel archers into tanks. The only civs which are so well-rounded would be Inca or China.

 

[woodshadows]

But how many decent coastal spots can you find where that harbour is really useful? The Netherlands have at least a decent UA that allows you early expansion when selling your luxuries - but I have to admit: They are not much (if any) better than Carthage and probably my next downvote.

I'm surprised seeing Carthage still on this list. Two UUs which I'd never build/not very useful. The free harbours are nice but push you into a strategy of building a long difficult to defend empire with subpar production. The only nice thing is the mountain crossing, in the right circumstances that could really come in handy, but that alone can't save them in my eyes.

 

[woodshadows]

China's place in here seems to surprise some people. I really don't see why: extra general with extra power is nice since I rarely do a serious assault without one, and the citadel is now useful for both war and resource grabbing.
Two shots Gatling gun are very nice too. UB is nothing to be ashamed of neither.

Persia I like but I always feel pressured to time my war according to the GA counter and I find it stressful and suboptimal, because I'm not good enough obviously but still.

Ha! I thought I was the only one who felt that way about Persia. Great civ but I always feel pressure to time wars to match golden ages and then when I do I become unimpressed by a 10% combat bonus and +1 movement which comes with a time-limit. I also don't find Persia has any inherent bonus to gain extra golden ages over civs, other than a bit of extra happiness from their UB, so I also question just how useful an extra 50% golden age really is. If I'm war mongering and puppeting I end up living in the red or just barely above, not much room for golden ages there esp now that you can't burn GG's or Great Merchants for Golden Ages.

 

[woodshadows]

Since G&K, really isn't a problem (especially by the mid game when the Bazaar is up and running), and the extra can't buy . If I want to get more gold, I'd rather research the economic techs earlier which is possible when you have an edge in .

you kind of can buy science.. purchase libraries/universities in low production cities to get your national college/oxford, have money for multiple research agreements.

 

[Mesix]

But how many decent coastal spots can you find where that harbour is really useful? The Netherlands have at least a decent UA that allows you early expansion when selling your luxuries - but I have to admit: They are not much (if any) better than Carthage and probably my next downvote.

They are all useful. For one thing they are free (no to build and no to maintain). They also come at the beginning of the game with no technology requirement. The extra from each fishing resource comes early and at no cost. The real benefit is that all coastal cities have instant without having to build and maintain a road...again without requiring any technology.

 

[PhilBowles]

I know it's futile, but England is an excellent civ overall, and the best civ on water maps by far.

Extra spy! This cannot be overstated!
Having TWO spies when Renaissance is hit is huge, especially in Immortal-Diety games where you are behind.
It's extremely helpful for catching up in tech in a way no other civ can achieve.

Longbowmen are like early artillery, and great for defense or offense really.
SOTL need no sell...they are insanely powerful and wreak sea havoc for a very long period of time without match.

And the extra naval movement is icing on the cake.

Ethopia is actually a really decent turtling civ, but someone has to go.
Nice UB (really good for getting religion going), but rather restrictive UA (have to stay small/tall or you lose it). UU is just meh, really nothing great unless turtling.

As Ethiopia I'm always always first to a pantheon, but I've never yet founded the first religion.

They are all useful. For one thing they are free (no to build and no to maintain). They also come at the beginning of the game with no technology requirement. The extra from each fishing resource comes early and at no cost. The real benefit is that all coastal cities have instant without having to build and maintain a road...again without requiring any technology.

I've read that The Wheel is necessary to allow trading routes at all, including those over water, so you wouldn't get the trade routes until you had the Wheel anyway.

you kind of can buy science.. purchase libraries/universities in low production cities to get your national college/oxford, have money for multiple research agreements.

As long as the AI has money left after buying your luxuries...

China's place in here seems to surprise some people. I really don't see why: extra general with extra power is nice since I rarely do a serious assault without one, and the citadel is now useful for both war and resource grabbing.
Two shots Gatling gun are very nice too. UB is nothing to be ashamed of neither.

Nice, yes, but look at the civs left and the ones that have gone. We're mostly past the ones with UAs/UUs that are just "nice". Cho-Ko-Nu is fine and great for quick experience, but ultimately any ranged unit can get logistics. China's UA does nothing substantial to help you win the game - quite possibly they should still be in the list at this point, but certainly not as one of the leading civs ahead of the likes of Korea, Siam and Persia.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'm surprised seeing Carthage still on this list. Two UUs which I'd never build/not very useful. The free harbours are nice but push you into a strategy of building a long difficult to defend empire with subpar production. The only nice thing is the mountain crossing, in the right circumstances that could really come in handy, but that alone can't save them in my eyes.

Really? They (harbors) also push you into having the "strategy" of having tons of money straight from almost the beginning of the game. They're more than nice. They DO require you to deviate and play a different kind of game, which to me is a strong plus (they're like the INCA in that regard IMHO).

 

[GAGA Extrem]

They are all useful. For one thing they are free (no to build and no to maintain). They also come at the beginning of the game with no technology requirement. The extra from each fishing resource comes early and at no cost. The real benefit is that all coastal cities have instant without having to build and maintain a road...again without requiring any technology.

But is a coastal city with a free harbor really more useful than an inland settlement on a lux you can trade away? I mean, I see the idea behind it, but fail to grasp the real strategic advantage of it on a land based map...

Are trade routes with low pop cities really that powerful? I always feel like I have to delay my road networks and wait until they grow a bit to prevent me from bankcrupting during the early game before markets are up...

But speakling of roads, I once managed to build roads with them into mountains as carhage - that was quite epic. A road network running through 3 mountain tiles directly to an enemy capital. My troops were really happy.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

But is a coastal city with a free harbor really more useful than an inland settlement on a lux you can trade away? I mean, I see the idea behind it, but fail to grasp the real strategic advantage of it on a land based map...

Are trade routes with low pop cities really that powerful? I always feel like I have to delay my road networks and wait until they grow a bit to prevent me from bankcrupting during the early game before markets are up...

But speakling of roads, I once managed to build roads with them into mountains as carhage - that was quite epic. A road network running through 3 mountain tiles directly to an enemy capital. My troops were really happy.

I don't know, the map I had gotten (Continents) had plenty of good coastal spots. I didn't notice any problems anyhow. I had also grabbed Messenger of the Gods; which works perfectly with them of course, but I don't know if I would count on getting it.

I really wanted to build a Citadel on the Mountain but I wasn't allowed to have it.

 

[PhilBowles]

Arabia 19
Babylon 27
Carthage 16
China 27
England 0
Inca 31
Korea 27
Maya 16
Netherlands 21
Persia 17
Siam 19

I'm tempted to start putting China where it belongs, but Arabia really is a rather weak civ unless you can use the bazaar's lux bonus, making it heavily dependent both on maps and on the surrounding civs (which dictates both their likelihood of giving good trades and their own resource access, as well as the amount of money they'll have). You can often settle unique luxuries readily in the early game, and most people would by default, but this is often not possible past the first three or four luxes, and what's more not expanding onto duplicates you can trade makes it more likely that another civ will expand onto that lux and so you will no longer be able to trade with it. The benefit peters out in the late game anyway, when even slow-resource-improving AIs will have access to most luxes you have to offer, at much the same point when the gold from one or two trades really doesn't amount to much.

Upvoting Siam for all my preceding reasons. And the only situations with Siam that present difficult starts to exploit the UA are those occasions where you only have neighbouring mercantile/militaristic CSes.

 

[maurcus]

Arabia 19
Babylon 27
Carthage 17 (+1) always useful you can grab a few coastal cities and messenger of the gods and dominate early game and the cheaper trade routes means more money to buy other thing like say settlers.
China 27
Inca 31
Korea 27
Maya 16
Netherlands 21
Persia 17
Siam 17 (-2) Of the remaining civs the least useful with the possible exception of Arabia IMNSHO so -2

 

[woodshadows]

Really? They (harbors) also push you into having the "strategy" of having tons of money straight from almost the beginning of the game. They're more than nice. They DO require you to deviate and play a different kind of game, which to me is a strong plus (they're like the INCA in that regard IMHO).

Money is nice, but 'tons' from small cities with a trade route? Not sure it outweights the expense of having to build a larger than average army to defend the extremely long borders you'll have created, made even more challenging by cities with non-optimal production. For free trade-routes you're better off with Iroquois, free land-based trade routes, UB for even more production and a UU that is actually useful, all three combining for great synergy.

 

[curwen]

Arabia 19
Babylon 27
Carthage 15
China 27
Inca 31
Korea 27
Maya 17
Netherlands 21
Persia 17
Siam 17

Carthage at deity only useful thing (rarely) is to go through mountain... free port is useless except on special map ( at MOST i build 2 port city per continent.... most of the time one...). And UI think the same way , generaly one of the first to disaeppear...
maya : ... If you did not play them try them you will remeber it (unlike carthage..)

 

[Gucumatz]

Indeed - Keshik + Camel Archer City states are Carthage's best friend (along with pyramids so workers can build a road in 1 turn on quick on a mountain along with liberty). Being able to use mountains for the ultimate line of sight is priceless. Alternatively also works somewhat for a Cho-Ko-Nuh city state.

Was playing a multi game and was able to outsiege a 7-8 tech higher opponent this way .

 

[curwen]

"Indeed - Keshik + Camel Archer City states are Carthage's best friend (along with pyramids so workers can build a road in 1 turn on quick on a mountain along with liberty). Being able to use mountains for the ultimate line of sight is priceless. Alternatively also works somewhat for a Cho-Ko-Nuh city state."...

Any civ love getting special unit (A cs gave me once the byzantium cavalry as monghol and i used it more than when i played byzance )

I played cathage about 10 times at deity i used the moutain thing ... 2 or 3 times .... and i could have done without (did you really have a moutain range you cannot go through by for example using sea movement / CS / going another way / and later on artillery/bomber ....). As i say when i play carthage i do not use the fact that i play carthage (UA UU are useless), seems like playing byzanthian after middle age with no religion (UU spend and UA cannot be used)... but for byzantine that was bad start/poor play ... for carthage that is normal.

 

[woodshadows]

I played cathage about 10 times at deity i used the moutain thing ... 2 or 3 times .... and i could have done without (did you really have a moutain range you cannot go through by for example using sea movement / CS / going another way / and later on artillery/bomber ....). As i say when i play carthage i do not use the fact that i play carthage (UA UU are useless), seems like playing byzanthian after middle age with no religion (UU spend and UA cannot be used)... but for byzantine that was bad start/poor play ... for carthage that is normal.

Yeah but, just think of the great advantage you have in having control of the sea with your quinquiremes in the ancient/classical era, to defend against all of those barb galleys who want to pillage your sea resources. Very useful unit that one. The African Elephant, what a beast, your low production cities can pump out one or two of those before you reach medieval, then you can take those bloated lumbering liabilities into combat to be picked apart by spears/arrows. Outside of being "Carthage" with the whole Hannibal coolness factor, this civ is about as good in the game as its historical counterpart was in real life - horribly flawed.

 

[Mesix]

Not to mention that you instantly have with a new continent the moment you settle or conquer a coastal city. With any other civ, it takes time to build the Harbor to link up your trade network. The lack of maintenance means that all coastal cities produce income, and not just larger ones that can generate enough from to pay for the Harbor maintenance.

 

[lollibast]

Not to mention that you instantly have with a new continent the moment you settle or conquer a coastal city. With any other civ, it takes time to build the Harbor to link up your trade network. The lack of maintenance means that all coastal cities produce income, and not just larger ones that can generate enough from to pay for the Harbor maintenance.

well, instant traderoute in a 1pop city really is a game changer...

 

[lb1785]

Arabia 19
Babylon 27
Carthage 13
China 27
Inca 31
Korea 27
Maya 17
Netherlands 22
Persia 17
Siam 17

Downvoting Carthage for basically the same reason as curwen, free harbors is not such a big bonus except on specific maps imho. And being able to cross mountains is OK but I don't think it can change the course of a war... Plus I don't like civs with two UUs, but that's debatable of course.

Upvoting the Netherlands for the unique ability: you can always find some friendly civ on the map with whom you can trade away your precious luxuries, in exchange for whatever you may need from them ! It's good in the sense that it does not call for a specific strategy (not a purely militaristic bonus like China, not a purely scientific one like Korea etc.)