Civilization elimination thread

[Haphaz]

Arabia 19
Babylon 22
Carthage 14 - 2 = 14
China 28
Inca 32 + 1 = 33
Korea 27
Maya 16
Netherlands 16
Persia 18
Siam 15

On basis of synergy; Carthage requires both mountains and coast, Inca requires just mountains. A bit easier to fully exploit. Really tough choices though.

 

[kamikazees]

Arabia 19
Babylon 22
Carthage 12
China 28
Inca 33
Korea 27
Maya 14 (-2)
Netherlands 17 (+1)
Persia 18
Siam 15

Tough choices. I downvote Maya because their UA requires a lot of micromanagement and I am not very good at that. You can get into a situation when the GP you really need gets bumped way back because you popped one already, popped something else, etc. I upvote Netherlands because they are very fun to play. One of the few civs whose unique traits are always useful.

 

[Koiranputki]

Arabia 19
Babylon 22
Carthage 14
China 28
Inca 32
Korea 27
Maya 14
Netherlands 18 (+1)
Persia 18
Siam 13 (-2)

Some of my favourites are now long gone out of this list...

But, anyway of those remaining, I really like playing as the Dutch...one of my recent favourite games included a Dutch "Petra" city with lots of productive desert hills, several Polders on a flood plain river. Very "Dutch" being located in a desert, isn't it?... The Sea Beggars are fun, too....

Siam is a little bit dull....and I've almost given up trying to hang on to CS allies until later in the game when I might have lots of money, and just keep buying back the "couped" CS's.... In the absence of that, I'm usually content to get partial benefits from being "Friends"...an exception might be if I really need come particular CS for some strategic resource...typically in the early game, Iron....

 

[Dunduks]

Arabia 19
Babylon 22
Carthage 12
China 28
Inca 33
Korea 27
Maya 15 (+1)
Netherlands 15 (-2)
Persia 18
Siam 15

Maya - you flexibility and almost always will have religion even on deity.
Netherlands - too much possibility not to have floodplains/marsh (or have them minimal) and so effectively nullify UA.

 

[kamikazees]

Arabia 19
Babylon 22
Carthage 12
China 28
Inca 33
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 16
Persia 18
Siam 13

 

[theguy8882]

Arabia 20
Babylon 22
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 33
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 16
Persia 18
Siam 13

Arabia is great for any victory since you always need money.

Carthage is not bad they just AREN'T THE BEST

 

[truenarnian]

Arabia 20
Babylon 22
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 16
Persia 16
Siam 13

This just got a lot easier for me.

Persia -2 because being able to perpetuate GA ad infinitum works against theme, in my opinion. No Civ is that happy all the time, and I love playing the game for theme.

Inca +1 because I love everything about this Civ. Today I'll just say that I once had two Slingers hold off a massive American invasion as they stung for the hit, then fell back under attack, only to sting again and again. They started 7 toles away from my border, finished 3 tiles away from border, and routed all comers.

 

[Koiranputki]

Arabia 20
Babylon 22
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 16
Persia 16
Siam 13

This just got a lot easier for me.

Persia -2 because being able to perpetuate GA ad infinitum works against theme, in my opinion. No Civ is that happy all the time, and I love playing the game for theme.

Inca +1 because I love everything about this Civ. Today I'll just say that I once had two Slingers hold off a massive American invasion as they stung for the hit, then fell back under attack, only to sting again and again. They started 7 toles away from my border, finished 3 tiles away from border, and routed all comers.

I have yet to try a game playing as the Inca...but they are starting to sound interesting.

Maybe as with some of the other UUs they are better deployed in the hands of a human player than the AI. In one recent game I had the Inca take a run at, I think it was, my fairly new and still small second city....I think I had two archers...one in the city and one just behind to one side....

[Edit: Oh yes...and about half way through their assault I managed to get a spearman moved over to take some of the heat...they nearly killed him, but at least he distracted them enough for the archers to keep whittling away at them.]

Along with the city's firing power this combo chewed the slingers to pieces....and I was even able to move the archers up towards the closest Inca city, though I soon had to retreat....a city assault would have needed a few more plus a bunch of pikemen...

 

[Dogmouth]

I have yet to try a game playing as the Inca...but they are starting to sound interesting.

Maybe as with some of the other UUs they are better deployed in the hands of a human player than the AI. In one recent game I had the Inca take a run at, I think it was, my fairly new and still small second city....I think I had two archers...one in the city and one just behind to one side....

[Edit: Oh yes...and about half way through their assault I managed to get a spearman moved over to take some of the heat...they nearly killed him, but at least he distracted them enough for the archers to keep whittling away at them.]

Along with the city's firing power this combo chewed the slingers to pieces....and I was even able to move the archers up towards the closest Inca city, though I soon had to retreat....a city assault would have needed a few more plus a bunch of pikemen...

War as the Inca is all about exploiting their hill movement bonus and/or exploiting a large and strategically placed network of roads. My guess is that the AI has a one-size-fits-all approach that doesn't take into account Incan idiosyncrasies. That said, the Incans typically do well in my games as an AI civ, although they never take advantage of the Incan UA combat mechanics.

 

[Loucypher]

Arabia 20
Babylon 22
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 17 (+1)
Persia 16
Siam 11 (-2)

Upvoting Netherlands again. Even if you can't make use of their Polders, as long as you get Luxes, they rock.
Down with Siam. His AI is a psycho, and he's pretty bland of the remaining Civs. Siam isn't bad, not at all, but...no.

 

[PhilBowles]

Siam is a little bit dull....and I've almost given up trying to hang on to CS allies until later in the game when I might have lots of money, and just keep buying back the "couped" CS's.... In the absence of that, I'm usually content to get partial benefits from being "Friends"...an exception might be if I really need come particular CS for some strategic resource...typically in the early game, Iron....

Not usually a good plan whoever you're playing - influence can take a while to build up, and it's very hard to hold onto CSes that have suffered successful coups just from gold payments. The best practice with CSes is to actively cultivate them by completing as many quests as possible for the CSes you're targeting for friendship, by stationing spies in them, and as a result ensuring that any enemy coup is unlikely to succeed.

I'm not sure, though, why there's such a hang-up regarding becoming allied with a CS to utilize Siam. Yes, you get 50% bonus on your alliance benefits, but you get 50% bonus on friendship benefits too. Siam has one of very few UAs that gives you a per turn resource bonus (depending on era, the bonus from a single cultural CS friend can match the output of two or three French cities, not to mention that +1 food per turn in the capital per maritime friend). On maps where you have even half a dozen CSes (and the minimum, on duel maps, is 4), once you hit Patronage and can have 30 influence with any CS permanently, you're reaping this kind of benefit from all CSes on the map. Is there really any UA in the game that can compete with, for instance, "Siam gets +4 food per turn in the capital once it enters the Medieval era?

I have yet to try a game playing as the Inca...but they are starting to sound interesting.

So far only played them once, and won. Not their best showcase - few hills and no mountains close to the capital, and also only one area where I could really exploit the hill movement with my units. But I really liked that bonus, and they can churn out a lot of cash with discounted trade routes. It's a shame the few slingers I made didn't survive, since it's an ability that would be quite welcome on later ranged units (that don't have a melee penalty to pay for it) and has reasonable synergy with the UA (retreat in hills and move back to attack without penalty).

 

[cman2010]

Not usually a good plan whoever you're playing - influence can take a while to build up, and it's very hard to hold onto CSes that have suffered successful coups just from gold payments. The best practice with CSes is to actively cultivate them by completing as many quests as possible for the CSes you're targeting for friendship, by stationing spies in them, and as a result ensuring that any enemy coup is unlikely to succeed.

I'm not sure, though, why there's such a hang-up regarding becoming allied with a CS to utilize Siam. Yes, you get 50% bonus on your alliance benefits, but you get 50% bonus on friendship benefits too. Siam has one of very few UAs that gives you a per turn resource bonus (depending on era, the bonus from a single cultural CS friend can match the output of two or three French cities, not to mention that +1 food per turn in the capital per maritime friend). On maps where you have even half a dozen CSes (and the minimum, on duel maps, is 4), once you hit Patronage and can have 30 influence with any CS permanently, you're reaping this kind of benefit from all CSes on the map. Is there really any UA in the game that can compete with, for instance, "Siam gets +4 food per turn in the capital once it enters the Medieval era?

Great Points on siam I think some people dont know how to use them best, but I cant really complain they have made the top 10 and its going to be hard for people to decide who to downvote from here on out.

 

[whyidie]

Arabia 20
Babylon 20
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 17
Persia 16
Siam 12



Agree with those who say they've gotten quite a bit from these threads. Very interesting insight that has had me eager to try out new Civs.

At this stage I'm getting even more subjective with my votes.

Took me two tries with Siam to fully appreciate the unique and flexible play. Not too fond of UU, but the UA and UU give it a boost. Not saying its the best, but worthy of an upvote.

Downvote to Babylon. Yes science is king and Babylon is one of the best at it. With that being said I don't fe.ind their UU/UB to be terribly exciting.

Looking forward to my next vote, Incas stand out as needing a chop, while Arabia/Persia are vying for the upvot

 

[Loucypher]

Hang on, how did Siam go from 11 to 16? Taking into account whyidie's vote after mine, the score should be:

Arabia 20
Babylon 20
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 17
Persia 16
Siam 12

 

[cman2010]

Hang on, how did Siam go from 11 to 16? Taking into account whyidie's vote after mine, the score should be:

Arabia 20
Babylon 20
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 17
Persia 16
Siam 12

I agree.

 

[whyidie]

Hang on, how did Siam go from 11 to 16? Taking into account whyidie's vote after mine, the score should be:

I goofed up the vote count. Started at posts I hadn't read and forgot I was a page behind when I went to vote. Missed all of the Siam downvotes on the next page.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Arabia 20
Babylon 20
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 15
Netherlands 15
Persia 17
Siam 12

Down: Netherlands. UU is good, but UA is fairly mediocre, and useless in MP, and UI is too situational.
Up: Persia - Just a myriad of bonuses from all angles, pretty hard to ignore. Great UU and UB too.

 

[Koiranputki]

Not usually a good plan whoever you're playing - influence can take a while to build up, and it's very hard to hold onto CSes that have suffered successful coups just from gold payments. The best practice with CSes is to actively cultivate them by completing as many quests as possible for the CSes you're targeting for friendship, by stationing spies in them, and as a result ensuring that any enemy coup is unlikely to succeed.

I'm not sure, though, why there's such a hang-up regarding becoming allied with a CS to utilize Siam. Yes, you get 50% bonus on your alliance benefits, but you get 50% bonus on friendship benefits too. Siam has one of very few UAs that gives you a per turn resource bonus (depending on era, the bonus from a single cultural CS friend can match the output of two or three French cities, not to mention that +1 food per turn in the capital per maritime friend). On maps where you have even half a dozen CSes (and the minimum, on duel maps, is 4), once you hit Patronage and can have 30 influence with any CS permanently, you're reaping this kind of benefit from all CSes on the map. Is there really any UA in the game that can compete with, for instance, "Siam gets +4 food per turn in the capital once it enters the Medieval era?.

Thanks, I see your points...and I suppose I should given Siam a careful, open-minded try again...it's been a while. Generally, if a particular CS is important enough to me I try to get a spy in there, if I can prioritize it. And I do try to focus on the quests...they can be a god-send in those games where you're in a real struggle to survive....

I'm probably guilty of not taking the time to carefully analyze the pros and cons of some of my CS alliances....some times I even waste money trying to steal a CS just to spite some powerful AI neighbour....Not a great strategy, I admit...

Usually if I'm throwing money at the CS's, it's because, in some games, I seem to have lots of it to spare.

At this point in this elimination thread, it's kind of hard to be negative about any of the remaining civs..

 

[PhilBowles]

Thanks, I see your points...and I suppose I should given Siam a careful, open-minded try again...it's been a while. Generally, if a particular CS is important enough to me I try to get a spy in there, if I can prioritize it. And I do try to focus on the quests...they can be a god-send in those games where you're in a real struggle to survive....

I'm probably guilty of not taking the time to carefully analyze the pros and cons of some of my CS alliances....some times I even waste money trying to steal a CS just to spite some powerful AI neighbour....Not a great strategy, I admit...

Usually if I'm throwing money at the CS's, it's because, in some games, I seem to have lots of it to spare.

At this point in this elimination thread, it's kind of hard to be negative about any of the remaining civs..

If you're playing a CS-focused civ (other than Greece, who just get a nominal bonus for doing anything they want with any city-state they happen to obtain influence with), you really want to focus on playing the CS game specifically. Make alliances and friends that help your victory position (through benefits - particularly the case for Siam - resource access, and/or strategic position on the map and whether the alternative to allying them is having an enemy ally them), pay attention to which CSes are being fought over by other civs and either rely on just being friends with them (no one much objects to that) while you focus on others, or overinvest in those specific CSes. Throwing a moderate amount of attention at a lot of CSes the AI wants, rather than a lot of attention at a few the AI wants or moderate attention on ones it doesn't, is the surest way to get coups. You may also want to era-rush to maximise the early benefits you'll get from CSes - this is quite viable with Siam, who with their jungle start and ability (if they get Education early enough) to use Wats as their Legalism culture building, quite benefit from reaching the Renaissance early quite apart from the bonuses to CS benefits. Having said that, I haven't yet trained myself to depart from my normal tech path sufficiently to era-rush.

If you need help deciding who to downvote, China's still ranked bizarrely high for what amounts to a good but highly specific warmonger civ, when every other full warmonger civ has left the party, including those arguably better at warmongering (Persia's a strong warmonger civ, but it's more fully rounded for other victory approaches than China). Top 10 is probably fair, but as it stands it will be in the top 5 or even top 3, where it really doesn't belong.

Most of the civs that have survived this far do one of two things well: make science, or make money. For the most part this is a direct consequence of the UA, but Persia (golden ages = lots of gold) and Inca (cheap trade routes and favourable start bias for Macchu Picchu = lots of gold) can also be seen as economic civs, and Siam (growth bonuses, jungle start bias, potentially free universities), while far from being a "science civ", does at least potentially have an edge over non-specialised science civs. And nearly all civs that make money and/or science (about the only exception being the Songhai) are in the top 10. China really stands out as the exception - it's focused on warmongering, and the gold from the Paper Maker is good but probably not enough to rank China as an economic civ.

 

[Gucumatz]

Arabia 20
Babylon 20
Carthage 10
China 28
Inca 34
Korea 27
Maya 16 (+1) The early tech boost helps you build momentum. And in any game - but particularly on multiplayer being able to get to important techs faster helps you build up and set you for the rest of the game. Atlatlists are not the best UU ever by a longshot - but they do allow your new cities to build defense fairly quick. Rapid spam and easy to build defense sets you up for the longhaul. Plus the Longcount is still my favorite UA in game - providing extra momentum throughout the game.
Netherlands 13 (-2) Sea beggars may be nice but they can still be dealt with. The UA is less useful on multi really and UI is very hit or miss and it comes quite late so doesn't help you much early on (though later it can be nice). Just not relaly worthy of sticking around longer than civs like Carthage, Korea, INCA, or my Maya
Persia 17
Siam 12