That's certainly an interesting way to go, and I have headed that route myself for the Grenadier/Cannon army combo. The reason I go for the MT is often as much the Nationhood as MT itself. The extra happies I get from Nationhood help out if I have a large empire with lots of really big cities, and I have drafted into winning wars often enough that I look for the chance if it surfaces.
Civilization IV Leader Traits: Self-Actualization, Axemen, and You
- Thread starter Sisiutil
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Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The choice of free tech from Liberalism depends, as it should, on things like the map, your civ's UU/UB, and the game situation at the time.
When I play as Russia, for example, I choose Nationalism to speed up the arrival of Cossacks. When I play as England, I'll choose something along the path to Redcoats. Astronomy used to be a favourite when I played continents games--the overseas trade routes and gold/resources trades gave my economy and city growth a huge boost.
I have to say, though, that when I started skipping Machinery to pursue Liberalism is when I found myself, for the first time, getting the free tech by 1000 AD! Having Grenadiers that early is HUGE. I've also started to hoard Education so I can get to Economics first for the free GM; trade mission gold is how I can afford to upgrade a bunch of Macemen to Grens. After that, the world's my oyster.
When I play as Russia, for example, I choose Nationalism to speed up the arrival of Cossacks. When I play as England, I'll choose something along the path to Redcoats. Astronomy used to be a favourite when I played continents games--the overseas trade routes and gold/resources trades gave my economy and city growth a huge boost.
I have to say, though, that when I started skipping Machinery to pursue Liberalism is when I found myself, for the first time, getting the free tech by 1000 AD! Having Grenadiers that early is HUGE. I've also started to hoard Education so I can get to Economics first for the free GM; trade mission gold is how I can afford to upgrade a bunch of Macemen to Grens. After that, the world's my oyster.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Well, you know I don't like to upgrade. Costs too much money. Much easier to switch to Nationhood and draft 20 or so Rifles to do the job. I'd like Grenadiers a whole lot more if they could be drafted
I'm not as fond of drafting as some other people are. By the time you get to the gunpowder era, war weariness can be a real bear, and drafting only makes it worse. It is a quick way to get a large army, though they're very under-promoted.
carl corey
Deity
I had a few games in which drafting gave me a big part of the army. I'd either draft from a Globe Theatre city with enough food to grow from 5 pop to 6 pop in one turn, or use several junk cities (settled in tundra or ice to get metal, for example) regardless of how unhappy they'll get after a while. Only once have I considered drafting from all cities (2 per turn + GT city), as I was between wars with the same AI and wanted to finish him fast.
Sisuitul:
It depends. As any Aggressive leader, you get Combat I for free right off the bat, and it isn't hard to spring for the remaining 4 XP (divided by 2) for the extra Pinch promotion. Combat I Pinch Riflemen coming in 30s is not something to be trifled with.
If you're Protective, they come with City Garrison I and Drill I, also not inconsiderable benefits, though I prefer Pinch myself.
Drafting from the Globe Theater City prevents a lot of unhappiness and could net you as much as 10 units in 10 turns (with NO unhappiness whatsoever) from that city alone. You'll utterly tank its production and commerce, though. Some people do the trick of making the GT in an intercross (secondary) city and feeding it lots of food so it produces one pop in one turn.
Alternatively, you could produce a lot of Jails, switch to Police State, increase the culture slider and so on.
I find that the costs of a long drawn-out war in terms of war weariness more than surpasses the costs of drafting if I can use the drafted troops to win a quick war through capitulation.
It depends. As any Aggressive leader, you get Combat I for free right off the bat, and it isn't hard to spring for the remaining 4 XP (divided by 2) for the extra Pinch promotion. Combat I Pinch Riflemen coming in 30s is not something to be trifled with.
If you're Protective, they come with City Garrison I and Drill I, also not inconsiderable benefits, though I prefer Pinch myself.
Drafting from the Globe Theater City prevents a lot of unhappiness and could net you as much as 10 units in 10 turns (with NO unhappiness whatsoever) from that city alone. You'll utterly tank its production and commerce, though. Some people do the trick of making the GT in an intercross (secondary) city and feeding it lots of food so it produces one pop in one turn.
Alternatively, you could produce a lot of Jails, switch to Police State, increase the culture slider and so on.
I find that the costs of a long drawn-out war in terms of war weariness more than surpasses the costs of drafting if I can use the drafted troops to win a quick war through capitulation.
vale
Mathematician
I think it is going to be interesting to discover and update the fluctuating usefulness of the traits with Beyond the Sword. Thanks to some incoming Australian information a few initial thoughts:
Spiritual is taking a hard (and probably deserved since it was so ridiculous before) hit. In addition to the Cristo Redentor, Golden Ages cancel anarchy and the price for the first one is now down to 1 GP. (Also +100% GP points while in a Golden Age).
Charismatic is getting boosted for no apparent reason since the happy monuments don't obsolete until astronomy.
Expansive also takes a hit although it is hard to judge exactly how hard the reduction in bonus is going to slow early expansion (perhaps they reduced the bonus in conjunction with making food hammers get multiplied too, in which case this may turn out to be a net positive for the trait, if this is the case then Imperialistic will also be reaping the benefits as well).
Any of the warmongering traits seem buffed since post siege nerf warfare seems as if it is going to be tough and every free promo will help.
Spiritual is taking a hard (and probably deserved since it was so ridiculous before) hit. In addition to the Cristo Redentor, Golden Ages cancel anarchy and the price for the first one is now down to 1 GP. (Also +100% GP points while in a Golden Age).
Charismatic is getting boosted for no apparent reason since the happy monuments don't obsolete until astronomy.
Expansive also takes a hit although it is hard to judge exactly how hard the reduction in bonus is going to slow early expansion (perhaps they reduced the bonus in conjunction with making food hammers get multiplied too, in which case this may turn out to be a net positive for the trait, if this is the case then Imperialistic will also be reaping the benefits as well).
Any of the warmongering traits seem buffed since post siege nerf warfare seems as if it is going to be tough and every free promo will help.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
It was, I messed up when I was trying to edit recently and a bunch of the text went missing. I'll have to fix it when I have the time. Sorry about that.
Freidenker
Chieftain
...Organized is also not covered. I guess you put "Charismatic" with the strongest traits and "Organized" with the "medium-strength traits" ?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Yep, still got to get around to putting all that back in. Sorry, gang.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Fixed! I got Organized and Charismatic and the last bit of Industrious back.
I can see, however, that I need to update the posts to take the Beyond the Sword expansion pack into account. Frankly, I need to do that with all the strategy articles I've written, including the beginners' guide. I'm going to wait until after I've played a few games with BtS (including at least a couple of ALC games). I want to feel like I have a good handle on the new features before I go spouting off telling other people how to use them.
I also want to update the Imperialistic trait and move it from "Weak" to "Medium". After several off-line games as Julius Caesar, I've come to appreciate the trait more than I did at first.
Protective, however, is still kinda sucky.
I can see, however, that I need to update the posts to take the Beyond the Sword expansion pack into account. Frankly, I need to do that with all the strategy articles I've written, including the beginners' guide. I'm going to wait until after I've played a few games with BtS (including at least a couple of ALC games). I want to feel like I have a good handle on the new features before I go spouting off telling other people how to use them.
I also want to update the Imperialistic trait and move it from "Weak" to "Medium". After several off-line games as Julius Caesar, I've come to appreciate the trait more than I did at first.
Protective, however, is still kinda sucky.
Freidenker
Chieftain
Do you think the strength of a trait is influenced by the type of game (whether it's a MP or a SP game) ? It seems to me (but again, I'm a newbie, I never played a MP game) that some traits ought to be stronger in MP, like "Organized", because games are shorter and some traits become weaker with time.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I haven't played MP yet either, which kind of surprises me. But I hear those games are just out-and-out slugfests, and that's not the way I like to play. Usually. Ahem.
But yes, I would imagine certain traits are better suited to MP, Aggressive in particular, in the same way that certain traits lend themselves to the CE or SE.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Revised and updated, mainly by moving Imperialistic from "Weak" to "Medium".
I still have to work in all the Beyond the Sword leaders. That's going to take some time.
I still have to work in all the Beyond the Sword leaders. That's going to take some time.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Phew! Okay, I update the posts to include the new BtS leaders, and revised the entries accordingly.
One thing I've noticed and like about BtS is that the number of leaders with each trait is now well-balanced. Before, Spiritual was extremely common, while Creative was very rare. Now there are 9 or 10 leaders with each trait, with Industrious (8 leaders) being the only more exclusive club, and only by a smidgen.
One thing I've noticed and like about BtS is that the number of leaders with each trait is now well-balanced. Before, Spiritual was extremely common, while Creative was very rare. Now there are 9 or 10 leaders with each trait, with Industrious (8 leaders) being the only more exclusive club, and only by a smidgen.
JujuLautre
Deity
You forgot Louis in the industrious club, that is why
You also put 9 expansive leaders instead of 10; and is there a problem with charismatic?
Thanks so much for all you bring to the community, your work is awesome
Freidenker
Chieftain
I think there's only 3 possible combinations with no leaders;
Creative/Charismatic
Protective/Organized
Philosophical/Industrious
Creative/Charismatic
Protective/Organized
Philosophical/Industrious
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
AAARRGGHH!! And I lost the revisions I did to Imperialistic too.
Every time I try to edit a longer post on this board, it does this too me. Have patience, gang. I'm going to convert this article to a PDF so this doesn't keep happening to me!
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