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Civilization VII - Firaxis Developer Panel (PAX West - 8/31) Discussion

Agreed on all counts. I expect Ottomans in modern.

My initial guess for Persia was Achaemenids, Safavids, Qajars. But Safavids now could potentially be modern as Zaarin said.

Even though I’d like the Qajars, I also am not sure what we would see emphasized with a Qajar civ. It seems challenging to make a good design for a dynasty known chiefly for failing to modernize and failing to effectively govern.
But their art!! Is a civilization defined only by its political and technological power? I’m sure many would say yes, but could we imagine a civilization with the some of the most beautiful paintings, poetic tradition, craftsmanship, and even photography as worthy of being a civ in this game? But I’m biased, I study Qajar Iran lol…
 
But their art!! Is a civilization defined only by its political and technological power? I’m sure many would say yes, but could we imagine a civilization with the some of the most beautiful paintings, poetic tradition, craftsmanship, and even photography as worthy of being a civ in this game? But I’m biased, I study Qajar Iran lol…
To be fair, the Safavids had some splendid art, as well, though I do love how the Qajars mixed stained glass with traditional Persian architecture. (I think the Safavids did some of that, as well, but I associate it more with the Qajars.)
 
It does appear that Dates are Very loose.

Definitely Expecting
Rome, Greece->Byzantium->Imperial Russia (also from Mongols), Ottomans (also from Abassids)

And the Shawnee should definitely be moved up
Hopewell->Fort Ancient/Lenape->Shawnee would make more sense
 
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If they are extending the modern era earlier (Which is what I hoped and is great.), they should really move the Shawnee up.
As someone else said, I'm fully expecting Shawnee > Lakota to be a thing.
 
Am I the only one who finds Mughals in the modern era to be extremely strange choice?

I would totally want to see Mughals in the exploration era, with gunpowder armies etc. Instead we are somehow going to see Mughals as post 1947 India instead of just... modern India of Gandhi, Nehru etc.

Any ideas why would devs go that way? My only shot is that this way they can have vague "modern" amalgamate of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, instead of those separate nation states?
Probably because many people complained about modern India and Gandhi all the time. Now they don't have any reference towards either one.
I would have never predicted it as I was 99.%% sure that it would have gone Maurya>Mughals>India. Never did I see the Chola coming.
As someone else said, I'm fully expecting Shawnee > Lakota to be a thing.
Do you think they'd do something crazy like putting the Iroquois in Antiquity and have it go Iroquois>Shawnee>Lakota?
Then again it might just be the Mississippians because of the Cahokia Mound wonder.
 
Do you think they'd do something crazy like putting the Iroquois in Antiquity and have it go Iroquois>Shawnee>Lakota?
Even with the blurry edges, I can't imagine Iroquois as an Antiquity civ. Modern scholarship generally puts the founding of the Five Nations in the mid 15th century, though there were certainly Iroquoian peoples in the Great Lakes region by the thirteenth century (where they came from before that is a bit of a mystery). Mississippians are a stretch for Antiquity, too, but, well, the ages do seem stretchy.
 
Even with the blurry edges, I can't imagine Iroquois as an Antiquity civ. Modern scholarship generally puts the founding of the Five Nations in the mid 15th century, though there were certainly Iroquoian peoples in the Great Lakes region by the thirteenth century (where they came from before that is a bit of a mystery). Mississippians are a stretch for Antiquity, too, but, well, the ages do seem stretchy.
Dates aside I was just thinking by relevance of power. The Iroquois Confederacy was arguably like the first indigenous superpower north of Mesoamerica. The next largest confederacy that America and other European powers would come into contact with would be Tecumseh's.

It was just a spur of the moment though. Then again, I guess there's no reason that Iroquois couldn't come later and be another branch of an Antiquity civ.
 
Probably because many people complained about modern India and Gandhi all the time. Now they don't have any reference towards either one.
I would have never predicted it as I was 99.%% sure that it would have gone Maurya>Mughals>India. Never did I see the Chola coming.

The Brihadishvara Temple was something of a tip-off. Chola was on my radar because of it, but I was still favoring Exploration Mughals.

I am simply thrilled to finally have a deconstructed India and China.
 
Worth noting they really emphasized the Chola's South East Asian connections/legacy during this, which is probably fair. I can easily imagine their second (or other, if civs can have more than two) thematic path besides the Mughals being a civ in Southeast Asia (a Malay civ would probably be most accurate, but with the Thailand expert they have on board the team I suspect Siam/Thailand is far more likely for the region).
 

With all the pruning of annoying/tedious elements form Civ VI they are doing, I cannot believe we still have this horrible gameplay system of having to laboriously find the best handful of policy cards out of a long list of them *every few turns*, and now with EVEN WORSE UI. It wasn't enough that they all look the same at a glance like in VI, we now can't even see more than a few of them on screen at once and have to scroll up and down.

Having to pick X amount of items from a long list always grinds gameplay to a halt in any game for everyone who wants to play as optimally as possible. At the very least make changing policies come at a cost so you aren't incentivized to repeat the process so often.
 
When do we think the modern age is starting? 1800 was a popular guess before. Are thinking more like 1700 now? 1600 maybe? Any earlier than that and it would cut off the age of exploration from the in-game era called Exploration, which would be really incredibly confusing.

Having the Mughals start ~1700 would be weird indeed, they were only a few decades away from terminal decline at that point. I'm surprised they didn't go with the modern Republic of India to appeal to the modern market. Of course, to get the most overlap between real history and in game chronology, they could have gone with the British Raj. But, as much as I would enjoy such a troll move, it would have been absolutely devastating PR (and be awkward mechanically).

Agree, pushing Modern back into the 17th century cuts right into the 'Real' Exploration Era - especially since I suspect there will be some years of the Crisis Period between the two.

1700 - assuming Modern Age is meant to start with Industrialization, Rationalization ("Enlightenment") and Nation-States, is, as they admitted "playing fast and loose". Only Industrialization, to my mind, can make a case, with the Newcomen primitive steam pumps being in use by 1700 and Papin's steam-powered boat by 1704, but real industrial factory work and machinery is about 60 - 75 years in the future with all the social and political changes that came along with them.

Also, assuming 1700 or so, that means roughly 260 - 270 years to 1960 - 1970, the earliest they could legitimately get that rocket we saw off the ground. That means, assuming 200 turns, that the Years/Turn will be a decimal 1.3 or so Years/Turn, which is messy.

Here's a thought: Assume 1700 is the start of the Exploration to Modern Crisis Period - certainly C. Duffy catalogued the beginnings of national Patriotism to that period, at least amongst French and British common soldiers, which is sort of 'proto-nation-statism'. That Crisis Period could extend, notionally, up to 60 years, to the real beginning of the factory industrialism in the 1760s and that would give 200 Turns to 1970 and Blast Off, and 1 Year/Turn, which has been more or less standard for the late game in past Civs.

I'm reaching here, I admit, but I think having a reasonably easy-to-calculate Years/Turn ratio will also figure into the Ages' length and cut-off, and I also am pretty sure that the Crisis periods in between the Ages will have some Turns associated directly with them - but there's no telling how many, or whether they are fixed or variable at this point.

Finally, am I the only one who thinks 200 turns per Age might be excessive? Previous Civs have assumed 500 Turns for a 'complete' game, and IF, as stated above, there are also turns in between in the Crisis Periods, that pushes the total game to well over 600 turns.

After all, right now Civ VI assumes about 110 - 120 Turns to complete the Ancient and Classical Eras, which roughly corresponds to Civ VII's Antiquity. I'm all for having more time to play with the earlier period, but a 30 - 40% increase in Turns seems a bit excessive given that the game has 2 other complete Ages and 2 intermediate Crisis Periods to also include.
 
I would totally want to see Mughals in the exploration era, with gunpowder armies etc. Instead we are somehow going to see Mughals as post 1947 India instead of just... modern India of Gandhi, Nehru etc.

It seems the modern age ends in 1950. At least that's what I heard. It seems strange to have a civ game end so early with no space race. It looks like it may end with the dawn of the atomic age/cold war.

As mentioned above, it appears modern age will start quite early. Before the industrial revolution for sure. I'm guessing around 1776 (America is pretty much confirmed to be a modern era civ).
 
pretty sure fast and loose with history is about the USA , Canada , Australia New Zealand etc. how do you get to those if it is rome-norman-england/france
 
Probably confirmation of Normans, Chola, and Mughals (which are Modern, apparently). And a look at Exploration Age turn 1 with 4 Norman unique policies shown
Given the Modern Age incorporates the Industrial Era (i.e. 18th to 19th century) that isn't entirely unreasonable. Though I am a little concerned about how these pre-Modern Era civilizations will be represented in the latter parts of the Modern Age (the Atomic and Information Eras).
 
I'm thinking Modern Era starts around 1450-1550. That's the end of the Hundred years War, the fall of Constantinople, the start of the Reformation (Martin Luther 1517), the High Renaissance (Da Vincie, Michaelangelo, Rafael), as well as Galileo, Copernicus and the beginning of the scientific revolution that led into the Enlightenment and the Rights of Man.
 
Frankly if you put it at 1600 you get the Reformation and New World as the crisis time, with colonies breaking away and old monarchies starting to fall. Just like the Antiquity Age ends around the fall of Rome.
 
The more I see about how Ages work, the more I feel we need a fourth and final age-one that incorporates the late 20th century into the entirety of the 21st century.
 
pretty sure fast and loose with history is about the USA , Canada , Australia New Zealand etc. how do you get to those if it is rome-norman-england/france
With conditions that every nation present can fulfill.
>Establish a colony in the New World and move your capital there -> USA
>Establish a colony in the New World and incorporate at least one indigenous people -> Canada
>Establish a colony in the New World and mine several natural resources -> Australia

>New Zealand. Implying we need EVEN MORE modern Anglophone states, Jesus Christ people, please stop already. :cry:
But if push came to shove, you can always draw the connection to Maori/Polynesian civs without being quite as questionable as doing the same with USA or Canada.
 
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