Civilization Wishlist for Civ VII

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think I posted on this before somewhere and somewhen, but when it comes to Germany, you immediately hit the problem that before 1871 the 'Leaders' of Germany were either leaders of only part of Germany, or Holy Roman Emperors, so the choices all come with some potential 'baggage'.
But there are still some Non-HRE - or "In Addition To HRE" German rulers available:

Otto the Great (Otto der Große). He was HRE for 11 years, but he was King of the Germans for 37 years, and his emphasis during both careers was to unify all the various German duchies, tribes, kingdoms, etc into a single entity (under himself, of course). Also beat back the Magyars at Lechfeld, one of those decisive battles that almost no one has ever heard of, and even has his own architectural style ("Ottonian") and presided over a 'mini-renaissance' fueled by emphasis on scriptorian literacy an cathedral schools and elite convents led by Royal women.

Frederick William, Elector of Brandenburg (Friedrich Wilhelm). If you want to pass on Fred the Great (Friedrich Wilhelm der Große), then you can't do better than The Great Elector (der Große Kurfürst). He's thd one who started the tradition of excellence in the Prussian Army, beginnings of Auftragstaktik, religious tolerance (welcomed Catholics, Jews, and a mass of Huguenot refugees from France), canal-building and infrastructure improvements, founded universities and libraries.

Ludwig II (Ludwig Otto Friedrich Wilhelm - there, that's almost all the German rulers' names in one!) King of Bavaria, called the "Swan King" (Märchenkönig) and generally considered to have been nuttier than a Christmas cookie, but also the most completely Cultural German Ruler imaginable. Aside from retaining a huge amount of autonomy for Bavaria within the German Empire, he's the one who patronized musicians, composers (notably Richard Wagner), artists, actresses, and built several palaces and castles (Neuschanstein is the best known, but Schloss Linderhof is a gem, and the Herrenchiemsee, though unfinished when he died, was set to Out-Versailles Versailles) which are now major tourist attractions (the most popular in Bavaria to this day).

Friedrich III (Friedrich Wilhelm Nikolaus Karl) Emperor of Germany for less than 4 months in 1888, but one of the all-time great What Ifs of history: a liberal Prussian monarch! Considered a very good general in the wars of German Unification 1862 - 1871 but also married to Victoria's eldest daughter, wanted to reform the German government into a cabinet-style constitutional monarchy similar to Britain with a severely limited Chancellorship, championed German Jews against persecution, vastly expanded art and museum collections in Germany.

With the exception of Ludwig, all of them have potential Militaristic possibilities, but none of them have to be defined (or should be defined) by those.

As for Unique Units, let's retire the U-Boat, please. Germany went all-in on submarines because she couldn't match her opposition in the 20th century in surface navies - it was the Poor Man's Navy alternative, and it utterly failed her in both world wars (in fact, since the U-Boat War brought the USA into the war against Imperial Germany in 1917, the U-boat could be said to have destroyed Imperial Germany: not exactly what you're looking for in a German Unique Unit!)

Possible German military Unique Units:

Landsknechts - I know, actually Holy Roman Empire, but also composed almost entirely of Germans

Reitors - 'light' cavalry with pistols, copied by almost everybody else in Europe.

Death's Head Hussars - (Prussian) (okay, actually only 1 regiment wore the 'Totenkopf' insignia, but it's too good a title to leave out) - the first Light Cavalry trained to charge in mass like heavy battle cavalry: again, copied by everybody else, but only after Prussia showed them all how to do it.

Assault Troops (Stosstruppen) - rthe WWI infantry that initiated 'infiltration' tactics, seeping through and round front line strongpoints to unhinge whole sectors of the front. Were it not for the USA's entry into the war, these might have allowed Germany to tweak out a victory in 1918.

 

[Zaarin]

Ludwig Otto Friedrich Wilhelm

That name was just destined to take the throne, one way or another. Maybe I should move to England and name my son William Edward George Henry. I think it's best to leave out John, James, Charles, and Richard.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I think it's best to leave out John, James, Charles, and Richard.

The current first in the line: cough cough

Jokes aside, would love to see the Khazars. We have very few land-based merchants in the 4x genre at large, not to say an Inner Asian nomadic merchant - steppe people were not simply about raids, conquests, raids, and more raids.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The current first in the line: cough cough

Jokes aside, would love to see the Khazars. We have very few land-based merchants in the 4x genre at large, not to say an Inner Asian nomadic merchant - steppe people were not simply about raids, conquests, raids, and more raids.

ALL or Any pastoral group should have a Trade bias: from one end of Central Asia to the other they were always the 'middle men' for trade in both ideas and goods.

And @Zaarin and I both have been banging a drum for a pastoral 'nomad' culture besides the War-Only Huns or Scythians: Sogdians, Kushans, Khazars, Hephthalites, Pechenegs - even the Seljuks could be tossed into the mix.

 

[Phrozen]

I think Maximilian I Joseph is probably a better choice for cultural Germany. He was competent, yet stubbornly Bavarian being disdainful of pan-Germanism, but also a great patron of the arts and sciences.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think Maximilian I Joseph is probably a better choice for cultural Germany. He was competent, yet stubbornly Bavarian being disdainful of pan-Germanism, but also a great patron of the arts and sciences.

IF a Bavarian was the choice for Germany, or a separate Bavaria, which would probably cause howls of Eurcentricism, at least among gamers who don't speak German, my two favorite Maximilians would be:

Maximilian I, sometimes called "The Great", the first Prince Elector, managed to keep the worst of the Thirty Year's War out of Bavarian territory and was also a great patron of arts and architecture - a patron of both Rubens and Durer and collector of art for the Bavarian (State) Art Museum, which he founded in Munich. Is sometimes called 'the ablest prince of his age' during the early 17th century.

Maximilian II Emanuel, the man who put Bavaria into a bright blue and white livery (and his love for the new Indigo Blue dye was such that he was popularly known as "The Blue King"), including putting the Bavarian Army into Indigo-blue coats that they kept for over 150 years. That army, along with the Poles, was the salvation of Vienna from the Ottomans. He built several 'iconic' palaces both in Bavaria and in the southern Netherlands, because he was the last governor of the Spanish Netherlands. Another patron of the arts, which was almost a Job Description for Bavarian rulers, it seems.

 

[shmily_dana]

I'd like to see custom civilizations implemented. The user supplies the name & city list. At the minimum, some static art for diplomacy scene must be provided. This can be a flag or a photo. I realize it would be hard for some users to provide animated or static unit and building art. So I don't know if that can be implemented. I would not mind having a unit or building with user supplied abilities, but using the normal art. So I think allowing the user to create generic (no unique anything) civilizations would be a nice way to add some extra flavor to a game. I know that people create civilization mods with the current game, but I would like to see it available as an option from the game setup menu like in Endless Space, Stellaris, etc.

 

[8housesofelixir]

ALL or Any pastoral group should have a Trade bias: from one end of Central Asia to the other they were always the 'middle men' for trade in both ideas and goods.
And Zaarin and I both have been banging a drum for a pastoral 'nomad' culture besides the War-Only Huns or Scythians: Sogdians, Kushans, Khazars, Hephthalites, Pechenegs - even the Seljuks could be tossed into the mix.

In relation to this point - it would be nice to not only have series-standard civs but also have their designs revisited. The series had already entrenched many concepts regarding different cultures into popular imaginary, but also with occasional shifts of cliche (such as from the Expansionist Americans to National Park Americans).

Some ideas I can think of, as well as ideas already proposed by others:
- Merchant Inner Asian nomads;
- Merchant Russia, namely Kievan Rus';
- Dutch but with fortifications and infrastructures;
- Romans but with amenities and infrastructures;
- Chinese but wide;
- Greeks but naval-focused;
- Another not-horse-raiding Native Americans;
etc.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Jokes aside, would love to see the Khazars. We have very few land-based merchants in the 4x genre at large, not to say an Inner Asian nomadic merchant - steppe people were not simply about raids, conquests, raids, and more raids.

I do think that Kublai's ability was a small step in the right direction trying to portray this. Though obviously it being represented by a whole different civ is ideal .

- Romans but with amenities and infrastructures;

Funny that you mention this because that's how I envision Rome in Civ 6 already.

- Greeks but naval-focused;

Maybe if we get Pericles instead of Alexander...oh wait!

 

[BuchiTaton]

Greece could be a maritime civ but naval gameplay usualy is kind of lackluster, plus many more civ candidates for that limited niche. So how could be a maritime Greek design?
- Colonizer-Trader is the classic Phoenician/Carthaginian design.
- Naval empire is more Portuguese, English or Dutch design (of course you can change some of these for CIV7 but all of them plus Greece?)
- Indonesian and Polynesian civs also are clearly sea civs.
- Pirates is Scandinavian or English.
- What about potential new trade+naval civs like Tamils or Swahili?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Greece could be a maritime civ but naval gameplay usualy is kind of lackluster, plus many more civ candidates for that limited niche. So how could be a maritime Greek design?
- Colonizer-Trader is the classic Phoenician/Carthaginian design.
- Naval empire is more Portuguese, English or Dutch design (of course you can change some of these for CIV7 but all of them plus Greece?)
- Indonesian and Polynesian civs also are clearly sea civs.
- Pirates is Scandinavian or English.
- What about potential new trade+naval civs like Tamils or Swahili?

I agree that I would rather Greece focus on something else other than primary naval bonuses. If they want to portray a Mediterranean colonizer it should be primarily Phoenicia/Carthage. Plus we could always add a PNW tribe like the Haida or Tlingit for another naval civ.

That being said I wouldn't mind Pericles himself getting a Trireme as a UU which when parked in city-states could gain diplo favor/influence/envoys etc. from that city-state.

 

[Xandinho]

Dutch but with fortifications and infrastructures;

Dutch are already kind of like this in Civ6. They have bonuses for building dams and flood barriers, in addition to the placement of districts alongside rivers. There's no fortification bonus, however. There isn't much trade bonus in Dutch civilization apart from Wilhelmina's discreet bonus.

 

[Zaarin]

Wilhelmina's discreet bonus

The one that is of absolutely negligible worth but which Wilhelmina will smack you over the head with her umbrella over if you're not giving it to her despite being literally on the other side of the world.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Dutch are already kind of like this in Civ6. They have bonuses for building dams and flood barriers, in addition to the placement of districts alongside rivers. There's no fortification bonus, however. There isn't much trade bonus in Dutch civilization apart from Wilhelmina's discreet bonus.

Maybe not against other civilizations, but they do a pretty good job of fortifying against natural disasters.

The one that is of absolutely negligible worth but which Wilhelmina will smack you over the head with her umbrella over if you're not giving it to her despite being literally on the other side of the world.

Still more useful than Robert's ability, in my opinion.

 

[Zaarin]

Still more useful than Robert's ability, in my opinion.

Poor Robert and Cyrus have no leader ability.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Poor Robert and Cyrus have no leader ability.

The leader ability of Cyrus is at least is more usable. Declaring surprise wars is way more likely to happen than declaring a war of liberation, which is only based on if one of your friends happens to lose a city. Even if one of my allies has a city captured there's really not much of an incentive into liberating them.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Dutch are already kind of like this in Civ6. They have bonuses for building dams and flood barriers, in addition to the placement of districts alongside rivers. There's no fortification bonus, however. There isn't much trade bonus in Dutch civilization apart from Wilhelmina's discreet bonus.

I agree, and a similar view can be said for Kublai's trading ability or Trajan's infrastructure ability. However, the Dutch toolkit is not something outstanding unique in the context of the game: Egyptians and Khmer also favor river placements, French and Sumerians to a degree as well, not to say "generic river bonus" is something that can fit every civilization from Mississippians to Chinese.

The infrastructure part of the Dutch toolkit also lacks proper benefits: Flood barriers hardly come in handy in a game; Dams and Polders are more practical, but it will be sincerely hard to find their placement in the first place, and take much longer time to pay for themselves. It doesn't really feel like "infrastructure" if less than 1/3 of your city can actually build and benefit from them. Trajan's and Roman's infrastructures are far more infrastructure-like in this regard (albeit I would like to see Circus or Basilica more than "Bath").

Personally, I would like to see most of the civilizations' unique focuses being laser-focused while also having a degree of flexibility - that is to say, to cope with everything by sticking to one developing plan. Phoenicians is the prime example here.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Egyptians and Khmer also favor river placements, French and Sumerians to a degree as well, not to say "generic river bonus" is something that can fit every civilization from Mississippians to Chinese.

I think that any game with around 50 civs can have something like three or four civs related with rivers (like could have many related to deserts, mountains, sea, etc.) but the quintessential river civ always would be Egypt we just need to look at the map of egyptians cities to see how dependant of the Nile they are.

I think is kind of unnecesary to portrait the Dutch as something different from a sea trade+hydraulic infrastructure civ (both things shared with Venice by the way). I still find Wilhemina as the "try something different" leader, so if the idea is to choose leaders far from their civ's Golden Age and unusual designs then lets add Jacinto Pat for the Maya maybe the average CIV player would find interesting to know about an idependent Maya state that was still fighting deep into 19th century. Maya were one of the first to fight the europeans and like Mapuches still are one of the few that declare resistance againts the military in the 21th century, time to put down the "mayan lost civilization" and "easy conquest of mesoamerica" cliches.

 

[Zaarin]

By the way I still find Wilhemina as the "try something different" leader, so if the idea is to choose leaders far from their civ's Golden Age

I have to say, while I generally dislike modern leaders, I found Wilhelmina a genuinely interesting choice, though in general I prefer selecting leaders from a civ's era of greatest importance or interest.

Jacinto Pat for the Maya maybe the average CIV player would find interesting to know about an idependent Maya state that was still fighting deep into 19th century. Maya were one of the first to fight the europeans and like Mapuches still are one of the few that declare resistance againts the military in the 21th century, time to put down the "mayan lost civilization" and "easy conquest of mesoamerica" cliches.

I'd find this profoundly disappointing personally. Yes, the Maya resisted the Spanish in a manner that would make the Aztecs and Inca blush and have retained a strong communal identity into the present, but when Cortes landed on the continent the Maya's glory days were long behind them. It doesn't make much sense to include the Maya if they're not the Classical Maya or at the very least Mayapan. What we can lose is the Apocalypto costumes Monty and Pacal habitually run around in. (I can't imagine how many resplendent quetzals died to supply Civ6 Montezuma's costume... )

 

[BuchiTaton]

It doesn't make much sense to include the Maya if they're not the Classical Maya or at the very least Mayapan. What we can lose is the Apocalypto costumes Monty and Pacal habitually run around in. (I can't imagine how many resplendent quetzals died to supply Civ6 Montezuma's costume... )

I dont realy see Maya's design/leader on civ going beyond 16th century, the appeal of classical Maya is too big, just wanted to add an example of heterodox design with an extra of usefull reason for that (on this case to acknowledge indigenous resistence).

Talking about Moctezuma costume, please Firaxis never again that "Mayincatec" clothes! Have cartoon like art design does not mean fantasy dress. Also about the feathers would be great to have more cultural related luxury resources like "Exotic Feathers" for many cultures included Mesoamerican ones clothes, accesories, banners and art/painting made of feathers was one of the more expensive goods on their societies, even on colonial time and even now there are things like Catholic Art made with feathers. Just think about your Aztec Empire conquering some region on South America, Africa, South Asia or Oceania for the lucrative feather commerce to your homeland. I think if you are going to change history what is valuable can change also to fit your culture.