Civilizations

[T_F]

Taking Pariah's for music:

*Númenórean Empire - Nazgûl stuff
*Arnor Empire - maybe some Aragorn-related music
*Gondor Empire - Gondor theme - know the perfect bit (as I said)
*?Edain Empire - no idea, maybe more Aragorn-stuff

*Druedain or Púkel Men Empire - no idea
*Variag Empire - no idea

*Noldor Empire - probably some bits from Lothlórien

*Teleri Empire - no idea
*Sindar Empire - The poem-song I mentioned earlier
*Nandor Empire - no idea
*Falas Empire - no idea

*Vanyar Empire - no idea
^Probably for all of those I'll just take some random Elvish music

*Hobbit Empire - Flaming Red Hair [the party song]



Should we divide Sauron/Morgoth into two civs? Morgoth got to use a lot more than Sauron, as Sauron never had access to Belryg or Dragons.

 

[Love]

Also i think that Samwise Gamgi shall be a leader in a possible hobbit empire. Instead of bilbo who never got to be a leader...

 

[T_F]

Didn't Pippin become Thain?

 

[Love]

He spent the most of his days in Arnor i think.

 

[T_F]

Hm, I'll have to look at the Appendices then. I think Sam works, he got to be Mayor for something like four times in a row.

 

[Love]

A good mayor... Bilbo got to be nothing...

 

[thomas.berubeg]

i would put the old Took as hobbit leader, if anyone.

 

[Pariah]

i would put the old Took as hobbit leader, if anyone.

Old Took - alias Gerontius.

 

[T_F]

I think he fits best of all.

 

[Love]

yeseliyesyes so screw bilbo, he could be a great spy...

 

[Elda King]

We already discussed putting the hobbits on the old Arda Mod thread, and we came to the conclusion (not very "strong", truly) that they were too peaceful and simple to be a civ. They took part of almost no important event apart from the War of the Ring and reconquest of Erebor, and only 5 hobbits had any importance after all. We would rather have the Shire wonder, and Hobbit units available as spies or stealth warriors.
About the edainic civs, I don't think having the three peoples of the Edain in one civ would be good. I tried to make the peoples of the mod in their origins, even the Dunlendings (they were some of the Easterlings that invaded Beleriand, even thought I didn't put any Leaders from this age) and such. I tried to avoid civs that only appeared on later ages, like Gondor and Arnor, because a civ can develop into another realm (like the House of Hador, that formed most of the people of Númenor - and, in this way, of Gondor and Arnor) but we can't make one civ appear from nothing in a current game (ok, Rhyes and Fall of Civ does so, but it's a completely different and very complex scenario). As the people of Númenor was a "mix" of all the edain, the later civs could have their leaders sorted between any of the three houses. I put one leader of each age into each of these civs (it's really weird to have Haleth, Castamir and Ar-Pharazôn as leaders of a same civ, but I randomly determined that the "evil númenor" was going to be represented by the House of Haleth, as we needed a civ to perform this role; it's the same as having Mao Tse and Qin Shi Huang as leaders of a same civ, their people was the same, thought they lived in completely different times and circunstances. Also, having the Greek ruled by Alexander, a leader of a different people, while the greeks were actually a miriad of independent cities that fought between themselfes, is another example). Truly, if we could change the name of the civs as it passes the ages, we could rename them to represent the different kingdoms, but as we can't it makes no difference if we call them by 1st Age or Third Age names, and I myself prefer the first.
About the elves, there are 2 points: I decided to have nothing from Aman in the game. Nothing. No Valar, no Vanyar, no Trees, no techs from this time. The time scope for this mod is the arriving of the Noldor in ME, and the boundaries are the ME and Númenor. If we did any different, the men would have to start the game later, we would have too powerful civs, and most times Aman didn't do anything interesting. The other point is: the Noldor were as separated between themselves as Gondor and Arnor, truly more. They made war amongst themselves, they thought in different ways, they allied with different peoples. In the 3rd age perhaps they were so few that they would have to unite to populate a city, but earlier, we had different civs for them.
As you may have noticed, I myself like the First Age much more than the others, but also, it's the best descripted age... But a Shire civ could be added, if you have any ideas of how to make it accurate and still "playable".

 

[xmen510]

Thanks the update. A lot of good reasoning there. Keep up the great work.

On the point of no Aman stuff. I completely understand why you do not want that in the game. What about that as a separate scenario separate from the rest of the game? Just a thought. If not, than that is of course fine. Thanks again.

 

[Elda King]

Well, I didn't want to go too much about the scenarios (we still have to finish the mod, to only them work on them), but by the war I thought of scenarios as early as the shaping of the world and the Maiar and Valar dueling against Melkor... But I don't know if we'll really do this scenario (I bet no), or wich ones we'll actually do. Probably a War of The Gems scenario, as it's the age I like the most, probably a War of the Ring, perhaps some more.

 

[T_F]

About nothing from Aman - it is an Arda mod, and I always considered Aman as part of Arda, as little part as it may have taken in the Ages of the Sun. Besides, if we are going to have a random map aspect, having the Vanyar not go to wherever Aman might be would be interesting at the least.
Though I can understand why setting boundaries like that would be a good idea - the Valar would be immensely difficult to pull off.

 

[Pariah]

I decided to have nothing from Aman in the game. Nothing. No Valar, no Vanyar, no Trees, no techs from this time.

I see what you mean about the Valar: too powerful, too aloof, difficult to depict and still balance the game etc. But the Trees would surely make a good Wonder if nothing else. And the Vanyar are basically just elves - it could (in theory) have been them that returned to Middle Earth instead of the Noldor. I don't see a problem with using them.

Balrogs and Wizards were originally Maiar, of course - no doubt the modpack will feature those.

I tried to avoid civs that only appeared on later ages, like Gondor and Arnor, because a civ can develop into another realm...

Hate to be pedantic: but if Sid Meier and his associates had reasoned this way, we would have no English, French, German, Spanish, Russian or American civs available to play...

 

[Elda King]

Truly, we have Germans, thought the Germany was only united in the XIX Century. Before that, we had only Prussia, Austria, and many kingdoms. Also, we have China, but China is another kingdom that was only united in a single country after a long time. We have the Romans, not the Italians, because they are the same people, even in a complete and different kingdom. In the same way, we have Persia, not Iran. I didn't put only one Quendi civ because the Elves were one same people...
For the Vanyar, really there's no real reason for putting them away, seeing by this point of view... As we play in a random map, some civs are really left out of the game, and the Vanyar could return to ME as well. But the game chronology should stay the same, so no Trees (only the White Tree... probably a National Wonder), and no Valar, and no problems with men or dwarves.
One more doubt: should we include the other 4 houses of Dwarves (we have the Longbeards, the Firebeards, and the Broadbeams)? They didn't play a major role on the world, and we have really little info about them (their names are mentioned in a single text, and it also says they lived in pairs - so just 2 more civs). But they could be included, with some "creative help" - inventing leaders, and city names.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

i want at least two disticnt dwarven civs... though if we can't make them distinct, we could go down to two.

 

[Death900]

From what I seen, we could prolly add more civs. How many does BtS features? 16? 20? I can't even remember the number for vanilla.

But anyway, we could add some well-know civ such as Gondor and make them have their unique unit and unique building in the later age. We really (well, probably me excluded because i'm light-year away from you about Arda) should seperate the civ by the way they think or act, how much of a power they are, etc. Because, after all, Canada, America, Mexico, Brasil, all of America, are just a bunch of civ that seperated from their homeland. However only America is playable because they had a huge impact on the world. The Aztec, Inca, Maya have all disapeared for a long time, but they are still a playable civ. You should not exclude a civ just because it has some affiliation with an already existing civ or has disapeared. As i said, you have the take the most important one. Playing in the third age without any third age civ would be catastrophic.

 

[Pariah]

One more doubt: should we include the other 4 houses of Dwarves (we have the Longbeards, the Firebeards, and the Broadbeams)? They didn't play a major role on the world, and we have really little info about them (their names are mentioned in a single text, and it also says they lived in pairs - so just 2 more civs). But they could be included, with some "creative help" - inventing leaders, and city names.

There are plenty of place names available in the role-playing Middle-Earth maps, which include the east & south of the continent. And dwarfish-sounding personal names are easy enough to devise... We will also need a lot of new city names for your proposed Dunlending civ, not to mention the Haradrim.

From what I seen, we could prolly add more civs. How many does BtS features? 16? 20? I can't even remember the number for vanilla.

Vanilla Civ4 has 18 civs, BTS has 34.

we could add some well-know civ such as Gondor.... Playing in the third age without any third age civ would be catastrophic.

Thanks for the vote of support! It really wouldn't seem like Arda without the main nations from LOTR. Perhaps we can also have a Rohirrim civ, distinct from the Eotheod/Northmen?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

we are putting in the rohhirrim.

and i'm turning towards this more than what we had before:

*Númenórean Empire - Nazgûl stuff
*Arnor Empire - maybe some Aragorn-related music
*Gondor Empire - Gondor theme - know the perfect bit (as I said)
*?Edain Empire - no idea, maybe more Aragorn-stuff