Civillenniakind

[Gedemon]

I am of the opinion that the idea of civs changing with new ages actually originated in the Rhye's and Fall of Civilization mod, where it worked really well and HK stole that idea and implemented it poorly.

And I had a lot of good games with my HK mod making it play more like Rhye's and Fall, which is the main reason that I'm waiting civ7 with some curiosity about what we'll be able to do with it, I anticipate it to be a great base for this kind of gameplay.

 

[lt22677]

And I had a lot of good games with my HK mod making it play more like Rhye's and Fall, which is the main reason that I'm waiting civ7 with some curiosity about what we'll be able to do with it, I anticipate it to be a great base for this kind of gameplay.

What is the Mod called? since I abandoned Humankind years ago, maybe it makes it more manageable for me

 

[Gedemon]

What is the Mod called? since I abandoned Humankind years ago, maybe it makes it more manageable for me

I'd love to show it, problem is I stopped playing/modding some time ago, and because of the way we mod HK for gameplay, it's incompatible since some patches. I don't know if I'll be able to go back to it before Civ7 release, but I've wanted to do so since months now, problem is the free time needed to dive back in.

There is a description of what it was doing on mod.io:

True Culture Location and 16 players (10+6 AIs) for Humankind - mod.io

To unlock a Culture you need to control its real world historical territory (based on relative position on generated maps, or on the Giant Earth territories). The mod also add real territory names and allows 16 players (10 + 6 AI players) for that ma

mod.io

On Era change, Cultures are unlocked by owning their real world historical territory (based on relative position on generated maps, or on the Giant Earth Map territories).

Some Cultures require to own a "Capital Territory" and can only chosen by one Empire, some have multiple unlocking territories and can be picked by multiple Empires.

There are a few options available to setup the mod behavior, it's possible to either keep all your old territory or only keep the core territory of the new Culture. You can even deactivate the True Culture Location gameplay component to only keep the visual elements (Historical districts, City naming, Territory Naming)

For the first Era an outpost is enough on a territory to unlock a Culture, you can setup from which era a City (or an Administrative Center attached to a City) will be required to unlock a Culture.

and the development thread was here:

[Mod] True Culture Location and Territory Naming for the Giant Earth Map

v1.0.5.0 available on mod.io Old changelog source (gitHub) Installation instructions, descriptions, post-release changelogs and credits/thanks are on mod.io See the posts below for "How to use a .json file for mods or maps compatibility" and "How to get the diagnostic file for a bug report"...

forums.civfanatics.com

Someone made a fork, but I've no idea if it still works, and how much different it is.

 

[The_J]

For most of the "stolen" ideas, it has to be said that they are pretty obvious ideas to try out.
Nobody invented something truly revolutionary there.

 

[lt22677]

I'd love to show it, problem is I stopped playing/modding some time ago, and because of the way we mod HK for gameplay, it's incompatible since some patches. I don't know if I'll be able to go back to it before Civ7 release, but I've wanted to do so since months now, problem is the free time needed to dive back in.

There is a description of what it was doing on mod.io:

True Culture Location and 16 players (10+6 AIs) for Humankind - mod.io

To unlock a Culture you need to control its real world historical territory (based on relative position on generated maps, or on the Giant Earth territories). The mod also add real territory names and allows 16 players (10 + 6 AI players) for that ma

mod.io

and the development thread was here:

[Mod] True Culture Location and Territory Naming for the Giant Earth Map

v1.0.5.0 available on mod.io Old changelog source (gitHub) Installation instructions, descriptions, post-release changelogs and credits/thanks are on mod.io See the posts below for "How to use a .json file for mods or maps compatibility" and "How to get the diagnostic file for a bug report"...

forums.civfanatics.com

Someone made a fork, but I've no idea if it still works, and how much different it is.

Too bad, it means that the game will remain together with Civ 6 as one of my worst purchases and I think that Civ 7, if I ever change my mind, I'll buy it in 6/7 years when the 5 Euro version comes out (if I ever change my mind, but at least for the moment I can't find an item) since I bitterly regret having bought them at full price

 

[Deer]

Watching a lot of YouTube footage and reading comments, I get the impression that people feel that Civ7 is "stealing" ideas from Humankind and Millennia, as if that's some kind of a bad thing. The irony to me is that, when I play other 4x games, there are definitely moments where I think, "This is really cool. I wish civ did it this way. They'll never change that, though." I know other people have also thought this at times.

This isn't a post to claim that every change Civ7 is making will be a good one. However, I for one am quite glad that Firaxis is allowing themselves to be influenced by some of the cool ideas other 4x games have come up with. So I say: bring on the Civillenniakind... (with both sets of fingers crossed).

I also got the impression that Civ7 was taking a lot of ideas from other games. I do not think it is bad per se either - in fact, it is how a good market should function. Innovation should drive everyone forward and good ideas should be adapted whilst bad ones should be thrown away. I think many would argue that civ switching is a bad idea which should have been thrown away and for now, I'm inclined to agree with them. We will see how it goes though. The only thing I found somewhat provocative during the 20 minute gameplay snippet was how proud the devs appeared to be of having made something completely unique when so much looked familiar from other games. It is possible that they came up with these ideas independently from the games which they appear to be inspired by - but it was just a bad look in my opinion.

 

[_hero_]

I doubt that this is the case otherwise this thing would have already come out in Civ 5 or Civ 6 while, then the basic idea may have been born before, but the first time it was used in a commercial game was HK and this is a fact that there's no denying it and Ed Beach took it from there for Civ 7

You can't infer that it would have come out in 5 or 6 just because the mod is old. The fact is that unless Ed Beach says so himself, you have no idea where he got the idea from and are just making assumptions.

Rhye's was a strictly historical mod with TSL and it worked nothing like what we got in Humankind or Civilization VII, which are actually much more alike in design philosphy than either are to Rhye's

The VII version defaults to "historical" with ahistorical options being available as well. The HK version had no link to history whatsoever. The HK version happened far more often in game. New ages were not soft resets on the game like they are in VII. You can say they are more alike, although it is hard to actually know that with how little information is currently available, but it is clear already that the VII version and the HK are sharply different from each other as well. I'm not a huge fan of them adding this system myself, but this line of talk that it's just Humankind 2 seems like low-effort memeing.

 

[lt22677]

You can't infer that it would have come out in 5 or 6 just because the mod is old. The fact is that unless Ed Beach says so himself, you have no idea where he got the idea from and are just making assumptions.

Honestly, Ed Beach can say or not say what he wants, but the fact is that in a commercial game, civ-Switching was first introduced in Humankind, then we can talk until the end of time about what the Amplitude was inspired to introduce it to HK, but it is undeniable that they were the first

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

We don't understand each other, the problem isn't copying another game and copying the WORST part of a game that didn't do well

Are they copying the Leverage system of Humankind? How dare they!

Oh, right, are you saying that they're copying the feature that very few people complained about and qualified it as the WORST feature of the game? Hohoho, who is coping now. Truly, you have lost all sense of sanity, pal.
Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. The_J

 

[Quintillus]

There's a thread in the Old World forum making the case that Old World doesn't do anything revolutionary, it just takes a lot of ideas from the 4X space and integrates them together really well. Including the controversial 1 UPT mechanic from Civ. I remember when I first heard of Old World, my reaction was, "Oh this game sounds and looks really cool, and it's by Soren Johnson, and... oh... it has 1 UPT? My interest level just halved." But it turns out that with a different implementation, I like 1 UPT in Old World, even though I don't like it in Civ, and the meshing together of all the other mechanics indeed works very well.

I definitely can see the "Civillenniakind" or "Humanization" angle here, and there's always been cross-pollination between different strategy games. One of the neat things about the industry, no one tries to patent 1 UPT or terrain heights or any particular mechanic, so anyone is free to try making a game with a mechanic, and seeing if they can create a more compelling experience. And the industry winds up being much richer for it.

 

[lt22677]

There's a thread in the Old World forum making the case that Old World doesn't do anything revolutionary, it just takes a lot of ideas from the 4X space and integrates them together really well. Including the controversial 1 UPT mechanic from Civ. I remember when I first heard of Old World, my reaction was, "Oh this game sounds and looks really cool, and it's by Soren Johnson, and... oh... it has 1 UPT? My interest level just halved." But it turns out that with a different implementation, I like 1 UPT in Old World, even though I don't like it in Civ, and the meshing together of all the other mechanics indeed works very well.

I definitely can see the "Civillenniakind" or "Humanization" angle here, and there's always been cross-pollination between different strategy games. One of the neat things about the industry, no one tries to patent 1 UPT or terrain heights or any particular mechanic, so anyone is free to try making a game with a mechanic, and seeing if they can create a more compelling experience. And the industry winds up being much richer for it.

Perfect, the important thing is that we don't say that:

The fact is that unless Ed Beach says so himself, you have no idea where he got the idea from and are just making assumptions.

Because in games we have often always taken inspiration from other games, end of story

 

[TheGrayFox]

Are they copying the Leverage system of Humankind? How dare they!

Oh, right, are you saying that they're copying the feature that very few people complained about and qualified it as the WORST feature of the game? Hohoho, who is coping now. Truly, you have lost all sense of sanity, pal.

"very few people complained about"

Were you around during Humankind's open betas and release? I can assure you plenty of people definitely complained about the civ swapping very specifically, we're talking huge threads about the mechanic on most forums related to the game and I bet i could go find a steam review complaining about how immersive breaking or how much they dislike the swapping in less than a minute if i really cared to prove the point. There are tons of people who didn't even buy the game specifically because of the civ switching gimmick and plenty of them say that outright on these very forum.

I don't even think swapping was the worst mechanic or balanced thing in the Humankind (it was definitely their poorly implemented war score/exhaustion/negotiation system stolent from Paradox) but to pretend that "very few people complained" about it and that secretly everyone really liked it is just not true.

 

[Psychotronics]

I don't think it's a bad thing to take inspiration from other games in the genre. But when you're trying a mechanic that was poorly received in the game that tried, both by its playerbase and your playerbase... well, that's going to be met with resistance.

 

[Big J Money]

I can't speak for others, but the reasons I didn't like Humankind were unrelated to civ progression through the ages. Although it's been so long, I actually don't remember all the things I had against the game. I remember thinking the goodie hut bonuses were boring, but that was one of my minor complaints.

Anyway, "met with resistance" is expected. I don't think anyone argues that. All that matters is whether it ultimately turns out to be fun or not.

 

[TheGrayFox]

The VII version defaults to "historical" with ahistorical options being available as well. The HK version had no link to history whatsoever. The HK version happened far more often in game. New ages were not soft resets on the game like they are in VII. You can say they are more alike, although it is hard to actually know that with how little information is currently available, but it is clear already that the VII version and the HK are sharply different from each other as well. I'm not a huge fan of them adding this system myself, but this line of talk that it's just Humankind 2 seems like low-effort memeing.

Oh trust me, I am aware of the differences between what Firaxis is attempting and Humankind

and they are still much more alike in design and philosphy than Rhye's which is strictly TSL historical mod and does not allow "historical" nonsense like Eygpt becoming Songhai and then Buganda.

 

[Thormodr]

For most of the "stolen" ideas, it has to be said that they are pretty obvious ideas to try out.
Nobody invented something truly revolutionary there.

That's fair. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Gedemon]

"very few people complained about"

Were you around during Humankind's open betas and release? I can assure you plenty of people definitely complained about the civ swapping very specifically

It was more about the lack of identity than the feature itself for those who played it.

 

[Big J Money]

Were you around during Humankind's open betas and release?

I played in every open playtest (they have a special name for them, but I forgot what it's called), and you're right that there were people who didn't like that mechanic. However, I see no reason to believe that vocal group of people represent the valid criticism of the game. All of the real criticism that happened in the forums, based on actual gameplay feedback, was never about that mechanic.

Here's one of the top negative Steam reviews for Humankind. I'm not claiming this is evidence for my viewpoint, I'm just saying that I think you are overly confident about how many people you think share your opinion:

(By top, I mean this player played 216 hours, 1149 people found this review helpful, and it received 123 awards)

Spoiler Click for review snippets :

I really, *really* wanted to like Humankind, specifically because it promised to be a breath of fresh air in the ever-dulling scene of 4X-Civ games.

[...]

The game did (and does) a lot of things right when it comes to fixing the classic pitfalls of civilization games: You do not play as one particular nation that assuredly didn't even exist for the full 10k of human history, but an amalgam of indiivdual cultures that move through the ages.

[...]

Buuuut, the game also runs into the same pitfalls as other civ-like titles: The game is very overtly built around the early game [...] The AI, as usual, can't remotely keep up with the player [...] The game's performance stutters and struggles as cities grow more and more, and all the numbers inflate to usually nonsensical levels of production, science or gold. And, in the end, it doesn't matter how you got there, or what you actually are, because the end-game tends to look the same anyways.

[...]

Now, after a couple more months and minor updates, I revisited the game and it's straight up *worse* off than before the expansion

I get that you don't like "civ switching" mechanics, and that's valid, but Humankind's poor reception just isn't evidence that such a concept is doomed to failure.