CIVplomacy in the Ten Tribes
- Thread starter yahzuk
- Start date
Carnid
Chieftain
Considering the building of the Pyramids requires the discovery of a way of putting hard rocks into giant slabs, and not the discovery of a way to store food in very fragile clay pots, I will vote NO for the pyramids. We are not heading this way at all, and by the time we get there, it will probably be too late.
Ceskari learned of the council resolution and was happy with the result. Now he had something to do, in order to make the Empire a better place for all. He had already noticed how the water of the stream acted on certain mineral deposits. Now he started to gather mounds of the red clay that formed a bend in the river bank. The first attempts at forming effigies to the great spirit Yahzuk were insufficient to depict his glory, so Ceskari threw them in the fire.
The next morning, he noticed how hard these lumps of clay had become. Some of them had cavities, and the morning rain, forming puddles on the ground, had also gotten into the hardened clay...
The next morning, he noticed how hard these lumps of clay had become. Some of them had cavities, and the morning rain, forming puddles on the ground, had also gotten into the hardened clay...
Jehoshua
Catholic
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OOC: Please note plebeians that I we are not debating on building "The Pyramids" as in the world wonder, but instead about building A Pyramid, as in the mayan unique building which replaces the shrine and nets us +2 faith and +2 science (the gods give wisdom to those who sacrifice to them 
)
)Carnid
Chieftain
OOOH that kind of pyramid eh? The CLAY pyramid... *cough cough* Well I suppose it does indeed make sense and I change my vote for YES to the MAYAN UNIQUE BUILDING PYRAMID!
Carnid
Chieftain
A pyramid is like an italian church, built of brick but with shiny stone facing over the top of the structural brickwork. (its brick Carnid, BRICK, not clay
But... but... we have not discovered Masonry yet! Bricks don't exist! We only got clay to make pots! That must mean the Pyramid/Shrine will be made out of clay!
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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@Yahzuk OOC
since you didnt told us precise turns of production left to finish monument and turns of production being already done, and eta to pottery tech, i cant vote yet... please provide such info, this is vital
To all:
hey and if there 1-2 turns left to monument? there is still alot of sense to finish it
The Volcano Priest Slvynn is still silent... he sits silent and watching the split of the waters and their never halting motion of river , running and splitting it's way not far from the city, listening some haunting, disturbing ancient melody, which been played by his young but already virtuous apprentice.
"There is no sense for a waste, we ask Saint for an answer.... Volcano sleeps till then"
(I agree more or less on UU pyramids.... but need proper picture of eta to pottery/eta monument)
since you didnt told us precise turns of production left to finish monument and turns of production being already done, and eta to pottery tech, i cant vote yet... please provide such info, this is vital
To all:
hey and if there 1-2 turns left to monument? there is still alot of sense to finish it
The Volcano Priest Slvynn is still silent... he sits silent and watching the split of the waters and their never halting motion of river , running and splitting it's way not far from the city, listening some haunting, disturbing ancient melody, which been played by his young but already virtuous apprentice.
"There is no sense for a waste, we ask Saint for an answer.... Volcano sleeps till then"
(I agree more or less on UU pyramids.... but need proper picture of eta to pottery/eta monument)
@Yahzuk OOC
since you didnt told us precise turns of production left to finish monument and turns of production being already done, and eta to pottery tech, i cant vote yet... please provide such info, this is vital
Since a vote was called, only 1 turn has taken place since the last council session. Thats why its not worth updating all the screens. The scout was going to take 7 turns, now it only needs 6 more turns.
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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When 10 turn sessions begin? How much time eta to finish pottery tech? Pls notify about number of turns of session we voting for... queuing for 1 turn is almost meaningless because next session cqn change everything...calling votes could be used as exploit then to hijack the queues and force new command session.. bigger the group its easier to make such thing... again, i do say that this rule gives to bigger groups more advantage, in addition to difference between commanding and queueing. Means, if there enough bigger group and its coordinated enough it may win every vote and control everything... giving no chance to more fractured minorities....
It appears I won't be able to send/receive PMs on this forum until Saturday due to my very recent registration, so I'm bound to be the village fool announcing my every move for a few days.
For now... I agree with DevilHell's proposed resolution. (I vote "YES")
About the minorities... every single tribe is in a minority right now -- and will always be. I guess if you sum up the people who are pro "fire flavour" (militaristic dominance) there will be something close to a majority (8 people plus maybe some apocalyptos) supporting aggressive behaviour and disrupting pacifistic tendencies. However, that group will not completely control the game in all aspects as they differ in their secondary goals (not hitting partial win conditions / hitting a certain partial win condition first).
For now... I agree with DevilHell's proposed resolution. (I vote "YES")
Pottery had ETA 10 turns, so now (one turn later) it has ETA 9 turns. You cannot know how many turns there will be before there will be another council, since someone might send a call for a vote by PM or unexpected game events (like being DoWed) can occur. Anyway, it's not such a big deal, because our decisions from the previous council are still in effect. Now everyone just gets to give an additional command sooner than expected.
About the minorities... every single tribe is in a minority right now -- and will always be. I guess if you sum up the people who are pro "fire flavour" (militaristic dominance) there will be something close to a majority (8 people plus maybe some apocalyptos) supporting aggressive behaviour and disrupting pacifistic tendencies. However, that group will not completely control the game in all aspects as they differ in their secondary goals (not hitting partial win conditions / hitting a certain partial win condition first).
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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Ok, let me explain you:
Lets say there is Apocalypse group which counts 4 votes.
Once they complete any partial win they will be able to hijack any constructive command (reasonable building or tech order) by just calling for Random Resolutions (only one person needed)
Also, using this method of resolution which stops 10 turns sequence, majority (now I mean same majority you mean – means that If I aim for culture game I am minority now ) will be able to absolutely out command the minority, like me
In order to win, they need to control the tech and production and actions, and not allow any minority (lets say diplomacy and culture ) to impact the building/action queue. It's enough, for complete culture loss to miss some few turns of culture output - and all culture game ruined. And if i would switch to non-culture side, i would do it at ease, by exploiting by unlimited resolution, sequence breaker rule. Also, It could be done in simple way. Just do random VC-related , and other victories neglecting resolution (ie. Build warriors when aviable) (vote. If it wins – and war have majority, so big chance, or it fails – and still its good, because they invested one man to ensure that nothing done “in silent” against their VC) as long as they have +1 vote, they able to outcontrol ABSOLUTELY.
I suggest making resolution more effort consuming stuff , because it have additional power of breaking power of queuing (some minorities could use queuing to still somehow impact on the game, while being minority, for example is war guys are minor they still will be able to build random warrior by queuing warriors)
Perhaps some limitation for how much and how often you could call for them.
With such rule impact will be allocated proportionally. With both rules “command =! Queue priority” (one we talked before) and with 1 man call for 10 turn breaker resolution (there no limit in that either) , the majority will have absolute power, while non-majority will have impact close to 0. Means, game is close to pre-determined already.
I just trying to make this game more interesting and somewhat balanced and fair for everyone. 
On DavidHell example we see combination of those 2 rules i talking about.
I aim for culture.
They outvote me for 2:1 on Scout.
According to rule i proposed, that means my command to build monument automatically, and majority(scout voters) must save their 2:1 ratio in order . But as yahzuk said, i needed to recall my command in order to queue. After i did that, DH removed his support for scout and issued mass resolution which cancels my queue as well. 2 players vs 1 player , mas resolution and sequence breaker... and obcourse that non-culture > culture... it's obvious... but such 2 vs 1 effectivity, thats what i been talking about.
dot80
Emperor
I'm going to join the water tribe. It seems no one else wishes to dominate the world with me.
@ Slvyyn
Thank you for taking the time to more fully explain your position.
I understand your concerns a little better now.
I don't agree with them.
The point of this game is working negotiating with your fellow players to accomplish your goals.
Your requests are, in my opinion, specifically geared towards attempting to accomplish your goals individually.
This is directly contrary to the purpose of this game.
I have no intention of changing the rules at this time.
-Yahzuk
Thank you for taking the time to more fully explain your position.
I understand your concerns a little better now.
I don't agree with them.
The point of this game is working negotiating with your fellow players to accomplish your goals.
Your requests are, in my opinion, specifically geared towards attempting to accomplish your goals individually.
This is directly contrary to the purpose of this game.
I have no intention of changing the rules at this time.
-Yahzuk
You can't really expect the game to give every single person the power to decide something all on their own. I'm having trouble imagining how that could ever work; and besides: the game is meant to be about diplomacy.
Here are some more things I could come up with which might calm your mind:
- Situations like the first council can't happen if you hide your action.
- The "war" players are interested in keeping the empire healthy and somewhat balanced as well: they will agree to a monument sooner or later because social policies are useful and monuments are cheap culture. This game will not end before turn 200.
- There will probably be multiple cities not all of whose decisions any group can completely control.
- "Culture" and "diplomacy" players might both be minorities, but together they are more than the "war" players. They could agree to help each other build, say, a Museum and a Bank in a city. This means that, since the different interest groups overlap, there can be more than one majority!
OOC:
Well I separated people between Pro-Science and Pro-Domination
As a Child of the Boiling Seas those are my 2 possible goals, so basically that's why I did it
I counted Diplomacy as if it was Pro-Science, because it probably won't be Pro-Domination
And I eliminated Culture, which I'm gonna explain later why.
There are 7 Pro-Science and 6 Pro-Domination, without counting Apocalyptos.
The point of all these, is to start defining our tech path
I encourage people to post their ideas about tech path more than pming them, not that you have to do it, but as we are in the beginning I think is better to don't form knots since now
I know there are ones who want to beeline writing right after pottery, and I'm sure it will be then Philosophy and then Education, if we continue so
I don't completely differ, but it is also important to expand enough in the beginning, 3 or 4 or 5 cities, and if we go directly for Writing ---> Philosophy ---> Education we are not going to have time to do this, and we will also be late in defense, and I HAVE BEEN attacked in Prince on turn 80, to the point that I lost my capital.
The Scout is mostly to see if we have close neighbours, but also to catch some goody huts and meet CSs and detect the Barbarian camps, But independently from if we have close neighbours or not, we have to research at least masonry to take advantage of the Sugar on the North and the Marble on the East
We have to research Animal Husbandry sometime to check if we have Horsies, that would increase our production, since we only have one close Hill
So please post here your opinions about this I have presented
Slvynn: The thing with going Cultural is that you have to do everything as fast as you can do it, and putting specialists and building certain Wonders and all, and that's not going to fit with so many people focused on Science
I also checked people with the Cultural option, and there are only Four, so it's really unlikely going for a Cultural victory
You have played them, there's a point in the game were you only hit "Next Turn" and that's not gonna be this
So maybe you could focus better on the Domination part of your Tribe, and then you wouldn't be a minority.
Well I separated people between Pro-Science and Pro-Domination
As a Child of the Boiling Seas those are my 2 possible goals, so basically that's why I did it
I counted Diplomacy as if it was Pro-Science, because it probably won't be Pro-Domination
And I eliminated Culture, which I'm gonna explain later why.
There are 7 Pro-Science and 6 Pro-Domination, without counting Apocalyptos.
The point of all these, is to start defining our tech path
I encourage people to post their ideas about tech path more than pming them, not that you have to do it, but as we are in the beginning I think is better to don't form knots since now
I know there are ones who want to beeline writing right after pottery, and I'm sure it will be then Philosophy and then Education, if we continue so
I don't completely differ, but it is also important to expand enough in the beginning, 3 or 4 or 5 cities, and if we go directly for Writing ---> Philosophy ---> Education we are not going to have time to do this, and we will also be late in defense, and I HAVE BEEN attacked in Prince on turn 80, to the point that I lost my capital.
The Scout is mostly to see if we have close neighbours, but also to catch some goody huts and meet CSs and detect the Barbarian camps, But independently from if we have close neighbours or not, we have to research at least masonry to take advantage of the Sugar on the North and the Marble on the East
We have to research Animal Husbandry sometime to check if we have Horsies, that would increase our production, since we only have one close Hill
So please post here your opinions about this I have presented
Slvynn: The thing with going Cultural is that you have to do everything as fast as you can do it, and putting specialists and building certain Wonders and all, and that's not going to fit with so many people focused on Science
I also checked people with the Cultural option, and there are only Four, so it's really unlikely going for a Cultural victory
You have played them, there's a point in the game were you only hit "Next Turn" and that's not gonna be this
So maybe you could focus better on the Domination part of your Tribe, and then you wouldn't be a minority.
I don't think the Bunka were ever the largest clan, but their rule over Kyoto was unquestionable.
Bowsling
Deity
Oh, I guess I'll have to keep the Gaiko torch alive and join the Wind Tribe.
