Civs discussion thread
- Thread starter Rhye
- Start date
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Some version of "Al Nadda" of the Rahbani Brothers. But with some changes.
Metal Alloy Man
Back in Black
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 761
I believe it's parts of "shine on you crazy diamond" by pink floyd.
To me it doesn't make much sense to include the Babylonians as a civ with a 3000 BC start date given that the Babylonians didn't begin to dominate Mesopotamia until the reign of Hammurabi in the 17th/16th century BC. In my mind it would be more appropriate to have the Sumerians as a starting civ since they had already settled all of Mesopotamia by 3000 BC. But it's your project. I'm just giving my two cents.
I've read through the thread. I don't see a particular explanation for why the Babylonians should be in this scenario instead of the Sumerians. Sumeria predated Egypt. It would make sense to be extant in 3000 BC. Now if you're approaching this from the angle that Babylon extended its reach beyond Mesopotamia and the Sumerians did not, and thus you would prefer a historically expansionist civilization then I can understand that.
Arkaeyn
King
There are already two major Sumerian independents, Larsa and Uruk.
Considering that the Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemaic Empire both arose out of the Alexandrian conquests I don't think it makes much sense to just have them spontaneously arise into existence. Now perhaps if Macedon conquers Persia and Egypt and then collapses or liberates them as colonies...that would make sense.
mitsho
Deity
Absolutely not! Or does America appear just if England colonizes the Continent? Does the leader change from Peter to Stalin (or Ming to Mao) make sense without a communist revolution? Does giving Egypt a high probability to rise again in the later part of the game makes sense (other than say, Carthage who I do see to rise again way less often)?
I must say that the idea is beautiful and needs to be implemented, because (and that is my gameplay/flavour argument) we would most probably never see such Hellenic kingdoms. But then of course the cities needs to change and so on.
I don't think though Persia should change as it is too far away and kept its cultural distinctivity (Parthians/Sasanids). So the civ changing should rather be Babylon or Phonecia (and Hittites to Pergamon?).
I must say that the idea is beautiful and needs to be implemented, because (and that is my gameplay/flavour argument) we would most probably never see such Hellenic kingdoms. But then of course the cities needs to change and so on.
I don't think though Persia should change as it is too far away and kept its cultural distinctivity (Parthians/Sasanids). So the civ changing should rather be Babylon or Phonecia (and Hittites to Pergamon?).
Omega124
Challenging Fate
I've ben away for this for so log. XD
On a serious note, me leaving probably made all Saxon support die out... Can someone say the current list, not the list on the OP.
On a serious note, me leaving probably made all Saxon support die out... Can someone say the current list, not the list on the OP.
Edmund Ironside
White Rabbit Object
I think the first post I ever made on civ fanatics was suggesting civs to be added to DOC.
It is just a fun thing to do! As bluepotato's code changes I believe increases the number of civs RFCGW can theoretically have, I thought it would be fun to make a one or two suggestions for new civs to add!
Roughly in order of priority
1 Armenia = I tried to add them myself previously but hit a codding block at the time. They lasted a while, were moderately important particularly under Tigranes, and occupy an empty area of the map.
2 Thebes = This mod is Greek World after all! They were the 3rd most important Greek city state after Athens and Sparta. They would cramp Greece, but on the plus side as Athens tends to get over powered this might be a good thing.
3 Ptolomics = The longest lasting of the Alexander successor state, and as they were based in northern Egypt, would not be spawning directly on top of Egypt.
4 Dacians = Similar to Armenia (though lasted slightly less long).
5 Indo-Greeks = The last of the Alexander successor states to fall. The map would need to be extended to fit them though.
6 Vandals = May not work well as an AI civ. But could be fun as a human only civ. Starting in central Europe and needing to capture north Africa could be a really fun UHV.
7 Seleucids = Another important Alexander successor state. Would spawn on top of a lot of other civs though. Plus like with all the successor states has the issue that the Macedonians never conquer their area.
8 Parthians = Could work well as a conditional spawn similar to that the Sassanids had. They were an important rival of the Roman Empire.
9 Trojans = Ancient enemy of the Mycenae. Could work as a 1 city challenge civ. But how separate from the Hittites were they?
10 Medes = Pre -Persian state. Might be tough to fit them in though, both in location and time period, particularly now the Elamites are included.
11 Antagonids = Yet another Alexander successor state. For a while they were a very major player. But they could perhaps be best represented though as a Macedonia respawn?
12 Britons = They would still be a blob civ, but better than the Celts which are a massive blob civ!
13 Iberians = Same as Britons.
14 Ostrogoths = Unclear how distinct the visi and ostrogoths were. However they did end up as separate kingdoms.
15 Visigoths = Same as Ostrogoths.
16 Pontus = Comparatively short lived, but did have a major war against Rome (Mithradic wars).
17 Gauls = See Britons
18 Bosporan Kingdom = Greeco-Scythian Civ. Comparatively small and often dominated by other civs, particularly Rome. However they did last around 700 years, and were perhaps the first Hellenic kingdom outside of Greece.
19 Mitanni = For a while they were one of three major empires, along with Egypt and Hittites that balanced each other out. On the downside that part of the map already has a lot of civs.
20 Ghassanids = Early Arab state.
5 civs that could be removed:
1 Mauryans = Need map extension east to work properly.
2 Byzantines = Need Rome to expand east to work properly.
3 Bactria = Need Macedonia to expand much further east to work properly!
4 Celts = Massive blob civ
5 Goths = Another blob civ
It is just a fun thing to do! As bluepotato's code changes I believe increases the number of civs RFCGW can theoretically have, I thought it would be fun to make a one or two suggestions for new civs to add!
Roughly in order of priority
1 Armenia = I tried to add them myself previously but hit a codding block at the time. They lasted a while, were moderately important particularly under Tigranes, and occupy an empty area of the map.
2 Thebes = This mod is Greek World after all! They were the 3rd most important Greek city state after Athens and Sparta. They would cramp Greece, but on the plus side as Athens tends to get over powered this might be a good thing.
3 Ptolomics = The longest lasting of the Alexander successor state, and as they were based in northern Egypt, would not be spawning directly on top of Egypt.
4 Dacians = Similar to Armenia (though lasted slightly less long).
5 Indo-Greeks = The last of the Alexander successor states to fall. The map would need to be extended to fit them though.
6 Vandals = May not work well as an AI civ. But could be fun as a human only civ. Starting in central Europe and needing to capture north Africa could be a really fun UHV.
7 Seleucids = Another important Alexander successor state. Would spawn on top of a lot of other civs though. Plus like with all the successor states has the issue that the Macedonians never conquer their area.
8 Parthians = Could work well as a conditional spawn similar to that the Sassanids had. They were an important rival of the Roman Empire.
9 Trojans = Ancient enemy of the Mycenae. Could work as a 1 city challenge civ. But how separate from the Hittites were they?
10 Medes = Pre -Persian state. Might be tough to fit them in though, both in location and time period, particularly now the Elamites are included.
11 Antagonids = Yet another Alexander successor state. For a while they were a very major player. But they could perhaps be best represented though as a Macedonia respawn?
12 Britons = They would still be a blob civ, but better than the Celts which are a massive blob civ!
13 Iberians = Same as Britons.
14 Ostrogoths = Unclear how distinct the visi and ostrogoths were. However they did end up as separate kingdoms.
15 Visigoths = Same as Ostrogoths.
16 Pontus = Comparatively short lived, but did have a major war against Rome (Mithradic wars).
17 Gauls = See Britons
18 Bosporan Kingdom = Greeco-Scythian Civ. Comparatively small and often dominated by other civs, particularly Rome. However they did last around 700 years, and were perhaps the first Hellenic kingdom outside of Greece.
19 Mitanni = For a while they were one of three major empires, along with Egypt and Hittites that balanced each other out. On the downside that part of the map already has a lot of civs.
20 Ghassanids = Early Arab state.
5 civs that could be removed:
1 Mauryans = Need map extension east to work properly.
2 Byzantines = Need Rome to expand east to work properly.
3 Bactria = Need Macedonia to expand much further east to work properly!
4 Celts = Massive blob civ
5 Goths = Another blob civ
DC123456789
Deity
...aren't the Indo-Greeks and Bactria (assuming it's the Greco-Bactrians) literally the same civ?
I do wonder if the map can fit in Syracuse/Italiotes, and I've always felt that a Amorite/Aramean civ in Syria (Ebla/Mari/Yamhad) has been sorely missing (and not really represented in any other RFC modmod). Either Phrygia or Lydia is also definitely needed for post-Hittite Anatolia as well, I think.
Edit: Also no reason not to have a South Arabian civ (Saba/Himyar) and depending on far south the map goes D'mt and Aksum could go in as well.
I do wonder if the map can fit in Syracuse/Italiotes, and I've always felt that a Amorite/Aramean civ in Syria (Ebla/Mari/Yamhad) has been sorely missing (and not really represented in any other RFC modmod). Either Phrygia or Lydia is also definitely needed for post-Hittite Anatolia as well, I think.
Edit: Also no reason not to have a South Arabian civ (Saba/Himyar) and depending on far south the map goes D'mt and Aksum could go in as well.
Edmund Ironside
White Rabbit Object
The Indo-Greek empire was an offshoot of the Greco-Bactrian empire.
Here is a nice little video about them:
Some interesting suggestions there. I think combined that is over 30 new possible civs we have suggested for the mod!
Here is a nice little video about them:
Some interesting suggestions there. I think combined that is over 30 new possible civs we have suggested for the mod!
bluepotato
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2018
- Messages
- 325
Yeah, that's about how many the mod currently has. Adding all of them would take quite a bit of time.
The ones I've personally been considering are Lydia, Thebes (perhaps even Corinth! though the map is too small for that), Troy, Armenia, Dacia and the Mitanni. But I like the other suggestions as well. Currently the biggest limitations are the size of the map and AI expansion, the latter of which I wish to address in the near future.
I haven't implemented respawns yet, and I don't think I will, either. Since we can theoretically add an infinite number of civs, I don't see a real need for some civs to represent others, even if they were closely related.
There is still a limit on how many civs can concurrently play at the same time. It's controlled by MAX_CIV_PLAYERS, which is currently 29 (but could be increased without any issues). That's mostly irrelevant though, since we're talking about mutually exclusive civs that can't be in the game at the same time anyways.
I've decided against removing civs that don't really make sense right now due to the inadequate expansion of other civs, conditional spawns can be easily implemented instead. The Mauryans indeed need a map extension, and breaking up the Celtic/Germanic civs certainly would be nice.
DC123456789
Deity
Depending on how you interpret the (somewhat confusing and rather ambigous) evidence I think you might be able to represent Troy and Lydia as part of a single generalized western Anatolian civ (Assuwa -> Arzawa -> Lydia), if their space or timelines are a bit compressed individually.
Might be able to represent Corinth as a Mycenaean respawn or something, if there's not enough room for a full civ?
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