Civ's having a "primary" mana type?

Lade

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Do civs have a "primary" mana type, or is that just me misinterpreting things again?

If they do, how accurate is the following list?

Illians - Ice
Amurites - Metamagic
Clan of Embers - Fire
Lanun - Water
Khazad - Earth
Hippus - Air
Sidar - Death?
Doviello - Chaos?
Infernal - Entropy
Svartalfar - Shadow
Bannor - Law
Balseraph - Mind?
Calabim - Body?
Sheaim - Dimensional
Ljosalfar - Nature
Elohim - Spirit
Mercurian - Life
Kuriotates - Creation
Malakim - Sun
Luchuirp - Enchantment
Grigori - Force...?

I'm also curious if there is a list of what each sphere "represents"
 
Yep, you nailed them. Oddly enough, Sidar don't get death mana from their palace despite being associated with it, partly because they really don't like how death spells in Erebus usually fuel Necromancy, which they hate, and partly because having it automatically would give them a relationship penalty with the other civs.

I'm not sure if there's a big list of what each sphere represents in it's entirety anywhere, though it would be nice to see something like that.
 
Yes, you got those right.

Ice represents stasis and nostalgia, the reactionary view that things should not progress but should return to "the good old days." Note that its idea of how things used to be is often flawed.

Metamagic is about knowledge, especially obscure secrets about the past.

Fire is passion. It can be love, or it can be hate. It is extremely emotional and acts on emotions instantly, without really thinking. It is manifest in the passionate chaos of a mob burning a suspect witch at the stake.

Water is serenity, complacency, contemplation, reflection, and familiar rather than passionate love. It is very intelligent, thoughtful, and gentle. It is just as emotional as fire, but in a pensive way. Emotions are pondered endlessly without leading to action. Water goes with the flow, and still waters run deep.

(Danalin chose to fall asleep when the Aifons, whom he dearly loved, disappeared. Hastur, Lord of Nightmares, the Archangel of Mammon, sneaked into his vault and is whispering into his ears, disorting his dreams into terrible nightmares. This means that the water sphere has been somewhat corrupted, and is not rather insane rather than placid. Falamar seems to still represent the original personality of Danalin, but Hannah the Irin is aligned with the Overlords and their insanity.)


Earth is about responsibility, tradition, honing one's skills, hard work, and the reaping said work. It values tradition, and is very resistant to change, but it accepts gradual progress once it it shown to be an improvement.


Air is about irresponsibility, rebellion against authority or tradition, and fun. It is chaotic, but there is no malice in this chaos. It does things just because they seem cool. It hates working and loves reaping the benefits of other peoples work. It doesn't want to hurt anyone and it regrets it when it does, but it doesn't think ahead so this regret doesn't lead to learning anything.


Death is surrender or retirement. It is about enjoying a well earned rest while others continue the fight of life without you. It is inactive, dour, and stubborn, but generally gentle and not malicious.

In keeping with the theme of the sphere, Arawn does not want to get involved in Creation and he doesn't like his servants to either. Not wanting to do his duty has allowed men to corrupt the use of his sphere. No death magic in keeping with the sphere's real meaning exists, only Necromancy, which is really UNdeath magic which denies corpses the rest they deserve. Arawn hates Necromancy (not enough to really do anything about it, of course), as do those who revere Arawn (who are mostly Sidar). The Sidar may practice a ritual giving them unnaturally long life, but it does make them listless and causes them to loose the desire to fight on, very much in keeping with death. They would probably be horrified to learn that they ritual gives their souls to Laroth, who is using them to help his war to overthrow and usurp the precept of the god they love.


Chaos was originally about a peaceful anarchy, where people let each other be without forcing their will on anyone. Since Camulos fell, it lost the peaceful aspect, and is now the more realistic anarchy of everyone always fighting to oppress everyone else. It is a malicious chaos, embodied by psychopaths burning a house full of innocent children down to to see it burn. It doesn't need a reason to cause pain, and doesn't mind suffering itself it it can make others suffer.


Entropy is Despair, the fallen form of Hope. Agares hoped for freedom and power he could never attain, and realizing this all his dreams fell apart. The sphere is for hoping beyond hope for that which cannot be, and falling into a depression because of that. Also, misery loves company.

Shadow is deceit, the taking advantage of the Trust it used to represent. It is about lies and imitating the truth in such ways as to make people think that the truth is as false and empty as the lie.

Law is about justice, order, and oaths. It is absolute, completely unyielding. It sees mercy as a sin, and punishment as necessary for any crime. It does not care for individuals, but for society as a whole. The needs of the few are to be sacrificed for the needs of the many.


Mind is about greed and scheming. It used to be about foresight, and complimented metamagic's knowledge of the past with knowledge of the future. When Mammon fell, it changed from trying to understand the future to trying to control it. It is not satisfied with what it already has or what it deserves, but seeks to own and control everything. It doesn't want to hurt anyone per se, but it is quite willing to do so in order to help itself, and would never consider helping others for free.


Body represents strength and physical desires. It used to be about protecting the week, but since its fall is prefers to demonstrate its superiority. It is proud, lustful, sophisticated, and misanthropic. It wants to hurt others, but tries to be careful to keep itself safe in the process. It is the sphere of premeditated murder. It represents most of the evil that stems from man's natural desires. It is what the bible talks about when it speaks of the flesh or the world.


Dimensional mana is about the connections between people and things, and about relational or positional worth. It used to be about tying people together in the bonds of family and friendship, but now seeks to tare the bonds apart. It cannot recognize intrinsic worth. The dimensional sphere is very obsessive. It cannot love people for who they are, only what they are. It dehumanizes people and makes us little more than property. Attachment to one goal tends to blind us to all else, and turn us into monsters. It is a self-loathing sphere, which makes everything seem empty.


Nature is about growth, maturation, evolution, and progress. It is represented by a child growing to adulthood, but not by the child's birth itself. It is always changing, but usually so slowly that no one recognizes that it happened until later. It is not passionate change like Fire, but inevitable, natural change, driven by a myriad of different minor events.


Spirit is about mercy, forgiveness, and the sort of wisdom described in the gospels as appearing like foolishness to the world. It doesn't wait for others to seek forgiveness, but grants it so that they may. It represents love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (the fruit of the spirit).


Life is a struggle. It is fighting on, regardless the odds and despite past losses. It is about healing, restoration, resurrection, and perseverance. It also seems to represent sacrificing oneself for the greater good.

(Nemed, the original god of life, gave up this precept to become the father of humanity. While still a god, his precept drove him to ask that mankind be made immortal. He likely regrets that now, after being tortured for ages by his first wife in a vain attempt for her to find a way to end her life. Arawn, who took up Nemed's precept when he became a man, then gave it up to Sucellus when Sucellus wanted the power to fight on and be resurrected once his body was reassembled after his killer Mulcarn was killed.

Basium's unending quest to fight demons is just as much in keeping with the sphere as Sucellus desire to return, but they don't get along. Arawn's archangel of Life had been begging his god to give him the precept to help him fight evil, and instead he gave it to the pathetic god of daffodils whose only military accomplishment was failing where a mortal puppet later succeeded. Basium should rightfully be serving the god of his precept, but he hates Sucellus with a passion.)


Creation is about birth, fertility, creativity, and genius. Amathon is the greatest genius ever, using an ancient meaning of the word as a spirit embodying a mans reproductive power both in the literal and figurative senses. The power of creation really pushes the boundaries of what is possible, and as such is the most powerful--when it works. Its goals are so grand that they usually fall apart before they seriously get started. The sphere is the creative chaos from which great works emerge. Its products usually still need refining from the nature sphere, just as a new born infant needs time to grow up before becoming a man.


Sun is about truth, revelation, epiphanies, openness, honesty, and mediation. It seeks to show us our failings so that we might correct them and seek forgiveness. It can be a very annoying sphere if you don't want to see what it is showing you. I tend to think it is kind but completely without tact. It is always critical and no matter how well you do it will make a point of showing that it could have been better, but it means it in a good way.


Enchantment is about faith, virtue, knowing oneself, and valuing intrinsic properties rather than just how things can be used. It is the opposite of Dimensional. It is about being all that you can be, achieving all the virtues you would like to possess. It makes swords sharper, armor stronger, food better tasting and more nutritious, and most of it it makes men heroes. It can lead from the middle, and would never seek to gain rank or recognition.


Force is about balance, equilibrium, neutrality, compromise, negotiation, and contracts. In democracies, laws are actually in the force sphere. It seeks to make everyone happy, or at least equally unhappy. It values fairness, but recognizes the rights of individuals to agree to unfair deals. Force can be nearly as scheming as Mind in making deals, and as brutal as Law in upholding them. Dagda seems happy with the notion of social contracts, but Cassiel despises that such agreements can be made without expressed consent of all parties and with so many externalities to those who had not part in the negotiation. I tend to think that Dagda would support Social Democracy, but Cassiel is a doctrinaire libertarian. Dagda prefers to help the weak over the strong, but won't let that stop him from enforcing contracts that do the opposite, including demonic pacts involving trading souls.
 
(Nemed, the original god of life, gave up this precept to become the father of humanity. While still a god, his precept drove him to ask that mankind be made immortal. He likely regrets that now, after being tortured for ages by his first wife in a vain attempt for her to find a way to end her life. Arawn, who took up Nemed's precept when he became a man, then gave it up to Sucellus when Sucellus wanted the power to fight on and be resurrected once his body was reassembled after his killer Mulcarn was killed.

Basium's unending quest to fight demons is just as much in keeping with the sphere as Sucellus desire to return, but they don't get along. Arawn's archangel of Life had been begging his god to give him the precept to help him fight evil, and instead he gave it to the pathetic god of daffodils whose only military accomplishment was failing where a mortal puppet later succeeded. Basium should rightfully be serving the god of his precept, but he hates Sucellus with a passion.)
Um, wasn't Sucellus not god of life until after his body was reassembled? So he wouldn't be embodying life's perserverance in his quest to return.
How did Arawn embody Life while he was its god?
 
Almost gives me the Idea that each civ has a tier II (and maybe tier III as well?) spell of their patron sphere thats more to the nature of the Sphere than the current spells.

For instance, the Sidar Death II could be "banish" or something similar, which grants a promo +100% against the undead, and has a 50% chance of wearing off the next turn?

Mercurian Life III could be "Pheonix Feather" which grants the immortality promotion to the caster??

Balseraph Mind II could be called "Greed" and gives a hall of Inequity which grants +5 gold per turn. ANND the Mind III could be "Corrupt" and give enemy units the crazed promotion to wear off at a 5% chance, only if possible this version of enraged should turn units barbarian or balseraph, instead of going on a rampage.

the Orc Fire III could be "From Hell" which turns the tile into a burning sands feature. Or even just grants fire on the square. (other wise you get the unintentional spreading of desert, which could be imba)

the Hippus Air III could be "Windridden" which grants the blitz promo to all units in tile, with a 5% chance of wearing off. (maybe higher wear-off chance?)

The Infernal Entropy II could be "Despair" which adds a hall of despair that grants stigmata to units built in the city. Perhaps a slight boost to great person production as well.

Equally the Elohim Spirit II would be "Stand Firm" which adds a hall of heroism which adds DemonSlaying and Undead slaying to all units built in the city.

The Malakim Sun III would be "Judgement" which does something nasty to Vampire units and acts as Blinding light to others, (perhaps as well as adding demonslaying to units in the stack, with a 10% chance to wear off)

The Bannor Law III would be ... guess what? "Unyielding Order" exactly the same as the prior and Sphener. I think its fair ... its the friikking bannor.
 
Sucellus clearly had a desire to return, from the very moment he died. I tend to think that this gradually grew (in keeping with the nature of Nature) until it had become a more fundamental part of his being than maturation was. This would be what made him more suited to be an avatar of Life than of Nature, and why Arawn believed that he would make a better god of life.

(It is also possible that being separated from his body meant that Sucellus was cut off from his precept, and thus in the Netherworld his spirit was as free as a mortal to follow any precept.)


When Arawn was God of both Life, he was still the god of death and this tended to balance out the effects of the life sphere on him. He was however created for Death, not for life, so it was a more important part of his personality. One could argue that Arawn's stubbornness in refusing to get involved was a sort of persistence and thus an embodiment of the life spell, although that in which it drove him to persist was very much a part of death. Life may have actually driven Arawn deeper into the death sphere, at it would make him persist in embodying what he had always been. Life is a fairly static sphere, so it did not move him away from that for which he had long stood.


Arawn had never really done justice to the sphere of life, which made Sucellus believe that no god could bear two spheres and fulfill roles properly. The sphere of change had driven Sucellus's personality to be closer to Life, so he realized he was better suited for that than for Nature and that Nature needed a new god. That is why he gave godhood over Nature to Cernunnos instead of keeping both precepts for himself. If Sucellus had been granted the sphere of Life before he had grown out of the sphere of growth, then Life would likely have reinforced the effects of Nature on his personality rather than replacing his sphere. He then would not have given up on Nature and would have insisted on presiding over both spheres. However, there is no way he could do justice to both, so this would have caused corruption in Erebus. He would have had difficulty allowing old, sick plants and animals to die and make room for new ones, so the world would become thickly overgrown and too tough for its own good. He would have left no room for the Creation sphere to act, and thus weakened Amathaon and strengthened the sphere opposite Creation: Entropy. If Arawn had given in to Sucellus's demands as soon as he would have asked, it would only have helped Agares.

Now that I think of it, if Sucellus had come back seeking to return to the way things were when he was god of nature, he would really be acting out of the Ice sphere. If this happend while Mulcarn still lived, it would likely mean that Sucellus would become a slave to his killer. Of it still had to wait for Mulcarn's death, he would likely be unable to resist taking up Mulcarn's sphere, which due to the stark difference with his own could mean the eternal death of nature. The Age of Ice would have continued, just under a different despot and without any hope for rebirth.
 
Not necessarily "no hope" an agent of Bhall could decide to bring the world into a fiery wasteland, and during this process of Fire vs Ice, its possible that Succulus would be destroyed, and someone else could adopt the Nature sphere ... possibly.
 
If Sucellus had taken over the Ice sphere, couldn't he have returned it to noncorruption?
 
Not necessarily "no hope" an agent of Bhall could decide to bring the world into a fiery wasteland, and during this process of Fire vs Ice, its possible that Succulus would be destroyed, and someone else could adopt the Nature sphere ... possibly.

Huh? I'm not quite sure what you mean but Cernunnos became the new God of Nature after Sucellus.


If Sucellus had taken over the Ice sphere, couldn't he have returned it to noncorruption?

I would guess not as he may have become enslaved by the sphere of ice and it would have caused the end of nature.
 
It wouldn't cause the end of nature, Cernunnos had already taken over by the end of the AoI
 
Now that I think of it, if Sucellus had come back seeking to return to the way things were when he was god of nature, he would really be acting out of the Ice sphere. If this happend while Mulcarn still lived, it would likely mean that Sucellus would become a slave to his killer. Of it still had to wait for Mulcarn's death, he would likely be unable to resist taking up Mulcarn's sphere, which due to the stark difference with his own could mean the eternal death of nature. The Age of Ice would have continued, just under a different despot and without any hope for rebirth.

The Bhall vs Succulus was an alternate reality where he went back to nature and then inhereted the Ice sphere.

Although, if It was Nature and Ice, the Nature would want the Ice to mature into something greater, and that greater stasis-stagnancy would give halt to nature's maturatoin, reaching an equilibrium at a much harsher winter than before. The increase in harshness would most likely be equal or at least relative to the strength of the Nature sphere upon his return to it.

Things would be pretty bleak without some hellish Champion from Bhall, and only in such an appocalyptic world could a new hero of balance or nature (or both) to bring back order. Of course in this case a new compact might be signed which forbids a god to adopt more than one sphere. If however, the Neutral angels did not intervene on the Fire Vs Ice/nature war, then it would be left to mortals to try and enforce some kind of balance from the new level of carnage and mayhem.


AKA, Sucullus wanting to regain the nature sphere upon his ressurection would be the most logical way for him to gain the Ice sphere. I dont see him taking the mantle of the Ice sphere upon himself due to his wish to become rezerected, which goes against the Ice sphere of Stasis.

Really Ice and Death have many similarities in Spheres.
 
I still don't understand were you all are getting that if sucellus wanted to return to Nature that he would become Ice. He wants to return to what he was before, but showing 1 trait of a sphere is not enough to become that sphere. If that were true then wouldn't Arawn have turned to Ice when he gave the life sphere to sucellus because he wanted to return to sole control of death?
 
No, Cernunnos did not take over until after Sucellus rose again. What I argued was that if Sucellus had tried returning to the way things were before he died, then he would be acting out of ice. Trying to go back to how things were would almost by definition mean that he would refuse to give up the sphere of nature, so Cernunnos would never get it. By trying to keep the sphere of nature it would be lost, but by giving it up it was safe.

The sphere of life often makes me think of John 12:24-25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." It may be that Sucellus would not have been able to come back to life unless he fully embraced the entire precept, which includes that part about giving up on what you were in order to become something greater. It is that which separates Life from Ice (the desire to go back to how things were) and Dimensional (obsession), and which is what makes Life and Spirit get along.





I suppose that Sucellus taking on the sphere of Ice might be able to redeem it, but that would probably require moving into that sphere out of a desire for things to return to how they were before the gods first rebelled against The One rather than just trying to return to being the god of nature again. However, even if he could serve the Ice sphere in an uncorrupted form, he could not do that and serve nature and Life at the same time. Something would have fallen or been lost.



I tend to think that becoming a god of gradual change would have to be a rather gradual change, so it might be harder for someone to just step into the role like Auric did into godhood over ice. It probably had to be handed down like from father to son preserving continuity of the ruling family, not usurped by a revolution (that would move it towards fire). I'd say Cernunnos had to be prepared for it by many event leading him to mature over his lifetime, even if he didn't recognize that for which they were preparing him. Living among the elves and protecting them in the Age of Ice as Sucellus had in the Age of Dragons was probably the most important of these events, but being discouraged from fighting by his failure to save his son Gower may have begun the process of bringing his personality in line with Sucellus's back in the age of Dragons.



Imho, Ice is actually rather close to both life and death. Life is restoration, which is basically the goal of the ice sphere's nostalgia, but it is willing to make great sacrifices and cause great changes to lead to this restoration. Death is of course close to ice because neither sphere really wants to go on.


Arawn was not driven to give up the precept of Ice by a desire to return to how things were. He was convinced that Sucellus had come to better exemplify the sphere than he could, and that the world needing to healing. The life sphere seems to life driving its owners to give it away in hopes of making things better, so that is what he did. Just as important, however, was the death sphere driving him to personally not do anything.


The gods are very 1 dimensional. If one's deepest desire doesn't fit with his precept, things can realign quickly. Showing one trait of ice may not seem like much, but it could be very important, especially when the precept of Ice is actively seeking a new ruler.
 
But just because he wants to become the god of nature again doesn't mean he would become ice. Desire to return to how it was before wouldn't be the only qualifier to become the God of Ice. Nature would become slightly more Ice-like but it wouldn't fall, it might become neutral.

If he became the god of Ice, he wouldn't become the god of life, do Arawn would keep Life.
 
If the desire to return the world to a previous state was strong enough, I don't think he would be able to resist taking the ice sphere.

Nature was already neutral, mostly because Sucellus was such a pacifist. Cernunnos is more pragmatic than Sucellus was, and remains neutral even though Sucellus has moved to good.


Arawn adamantly refused to use the power of life, or to get personally involved in creation at all. Sucellus had to become god of life in order to come back at all. Ruling over 3 precepts is probably easier than convincing Arawn to change his mind.
 
Doesn't Cernunnos really hate Agares though? I thought he would after reading the Civilopedia entry (Fawn, maybe?) in which his son is kidnapped by Agares and the Black Mirror is used to create Hyborem.
 
Yea, he was the one Hyborem was created after, and he was the one that dented Agares' armor, iirc. We are talking if Sucullus decided to retake the nature Sphere, it is likely Cernunnos would step down from the title, as he was given the sphere by Succulus (even if he was dead at the time) however that is highly assumptuous of us.
 
Thats a lot of enlightning material for me to read in one go! Thanks guys.

One thing I'm a bit curious about, if Nemed had not stepped down, and somehow events actually occured in the same way, (another god did) would he have fallen to continue battling demons? Assuming he was actually a good god?
 
Nemed stepped down before there were such things as good and evil--or at least before the existence of evil was known. The sends of rebellion had been sewn, but the gods had not turned far enough away from the one for their precepts to be truly (or at least noticeably) corrupted.

(It isn't quite clear where they got the idea, but the gods generally agreed that all life in creation was meant to be temporary, before letting Nemed convince them to make Mankind immortal. Assuming that notion was from The One, that means Nemed was actualy the first to openly defy the will of his creator. Sure, Agares had already stolen the gems of creation and made Nyx, and he may have been helped and convinced to do so my Ceridwen, but Nemed would be the first to make his rebellion public and to convince the gods to corporately act against their creator's command. That might mean that if he had not become a man he would be firmly n the camp of the Evil gods.)


Demons (and all angels except the original 21) were not created until after the Godswar had started. As such, Nemed never battled demons, so it doesn't make sense to ask if he would fall to continue battling demons.


Maybe you meant to ask if Basium would have chosen to fall rather than stop the fighting when the Compact was signed? That doesn't make a whole lot of since either, as Basium would not have been created if Arawn had not gained the precept of Life. There would likely have been a different archangel of life made by Nemed, but it is hard to say what he would have been like. Archangels have much more free will than gods and more multidimensional personalities, so such an archangel could have been drastically different from Basium.


Also, if Nemed had not become a Man then his farm would have never existed, the Seven Pines would not have grown there, and there wouldn't have been a site for the meeting to negotiate the Compact. (Well, assuming that another god turned man wouldn't have done the same.)

(For a moment I started to wonder if Finner, the great human hero present at the signing of the compact, to whom the Godslayer was given, might have actually been but a pseudonym for Nemed. It makes sense that they would want their brother to be present when they met at his old estate to decide what to do with his progeny. The fact that the Elohim guarded his tomb probably means that he died though, which the immortal Nemed could not do. On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that they kept it a secret so that no one would learn that Finner had only pretended to die in order to hide his true identity when he dot tired of one life and decided to move on to another. Even if he couldn't die, he might have grown weary of living and would want to use such a place to get away from the rest of the world. In the unlikely scenario where this is right, the Elohim may have been trying mostly to keep it a secret from Os-Gabella, but failed and allowed her to take her husband prisoner and torture him.)



The only other god I can really picture being the father of humanity is Aeron. He very much wanted to father such an important race, he just didn't want to give up his own power in order to do so. I'm not sure what god would have taken up his old precept, maybe Camulos, Mammon, Nemed, or Sucellus?

The only other gods I can really picture giving up their divinity would be Sirona (who embodies self sacrifice) and Nantosuelta (whose sphere cares not for power relationships or positions of authority so it wouldn't tr to hold on to her). They would of course be mothers of humanity rather than fathers, and would have meant that Gabella would have been made male. I'm not sure who would take their places either, maybe the other of those two or Nemed.
 
Could a mortal take a sphere and use it in the opposite of its current form? I know Laroth used spirit magic in an unconventional way. Would the Sidar be able to use death mana without creating undead, or can they not because either Arawn won't let them or because it's impossible to use the only source of death mana that way?

Do the Sidar know Arawn hates and or oppose undead? ( I have a feeling I read the answer to that recently and have forgotten)
 
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