Civs Made More or Less Likely by Current Civ Cities

[Guandao]

I'm skeptical that the Turkish market is that important. Georgia is the first civ we've ever had from the Caucasus, and I suspect the "Tamar of Georgia" meme played a role in that. (I was a fan of including her; shame they did such a poor job depicting her. ) I'm hopeful Tigranes the Great or Tiridates III will grace us in Civ7.

Well, Tigranes the Great and Tiridates III aren't as awesome as King Tamar.

 

[Phrozen]

Well, I draw historical leaders (only headshots) sometimes, and I usually find the 20th century leaders uninteresting to sketch. I'm mainly talking about visuals than whatever deeds they may have done. Gandhi and Curtin are enough 20th century representation for me.

And I think it's best to avoid certain 20th century leaders for Civ. Non-controversial ones are ok, I guess....

I want Coolidge for America because he would be a great counter to Teddy's loud personality. He would give curt one word answers to everything. Plus he would have an accent that hasn't been seen yet:

 

[Dragonflow]

Well, there's a whole big issue with Turkey & Armenia....

As long as nobody mentions the genocide Turkey and Armenia don't really have any issues with one another.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So can we add Aquitaine to the list of Civs made less likely because of France?
I'd rather Eleanor be a leader of France or England before that.
Of course I'd rather another leader of them before her, but I'll take it if that's the case.

 

[Lord Lakely]

If Eleanor is in, she will lead France

 

[Haig]

Do you think that having Cree makes the Iroquis much less likely? They are pretty close to each other on map..

 

[Guandao]

Do you think that having Cree makes the Iroquis much less likely? They are pretty close to each other on map..

Perhaps......

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Do you think that having Cree makes the Iroquis much less likely? They are pretty close to each other on map..

I would say not necessarily because, according to the map, the Cree in game are more located in Western Canada while the Iroquois would definitely be located around NY and the Great Lakes region. And they shouldn't share any city names.
The thing that would make them less likely, in my opinion, are some gameplay mechanics such as trading bonuses and forming alliances that were given to the Cree.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Well, Tigranes the Great and Tiridates III aren't as awesome as King Tamar.

Yeah, as questionable as some of the design choices were I'm glad we got Georgia and Tamar since I found them a bit more interesting than Armenian. Not that I'd mind including Armenia if we could!

I want Coolidge for America because he would be a great counter to Teddy's loud personality. He would give curt one word answers to everything. Plus he would have an accent that hasn't been seen yet:

I have the admittedly biased opinion of anyways wanting to see Teddy but I could definitely get behind the contrast Coolidge would provide!

As long as nobody mentions the genocide Turkey and Armenia don't really have any issues with one another.

I'd be hopeful for that too, but I'm wondering how likely that would be in a game where you can wipe out your enemies.

So can we add Aquitaine to the list of Civs made less likely because of France?
I'd rather Eleanor be a leader of France or England before that.
Of course I'd rather another leader of them before her, but I'll take it if that's the case.

I would've suspected Gaul first before Aquitaine so it would be quite surprising if that lady is Eleanor. Of course that's assuming it is her and not some other leader or perhaps even a new governor. Wouldn't France and Aquitaine have similar city lists?

I agree that the Cree shouldn't stop the Iroqouis from appearing. It's already been mentioned that their capitals are fairly far from each other and they don't share any city names from what I recall. As for mechanics I'd like to see the Iroqouis focus more on warfare and pitting their rivals against each other.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would've suspected Gaul first before Aquitaine so it would be quite surprising if that lady is Eleanor. Of course that's assuming it is her and not some other leader or perhaps even a new governor. Wouldn't France and Aquitaine have similar city lists?

I doubt that Aquitaine will be a new Civ based on the cities even if it is Eleanor, which I hope it to be fake first of all, or secondly Aethelflaed for England. Bordeaux is already a city on the list of France, and it's the current capital city in that region.
And I agree that Gaul would be the primary Civ that would overlap with France, if we got it.

 

[Vahnstad]

Eleanor as leader of France would be an improvement over CdM.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Eleanor as leader of France would be an improvement over CdM.

De Medici is wrong on several levels: never being the legal leader of France due to the Salic Law and being non-French the two most significant. But at least she was attempting to rule all of France, whereas Eleanor pseudo-ruled only a part of France. It would be too much like having Augustus of Saxony as an Alternate Leader for Germany because, after all, he did rule part of it.

And all of that pales to insignificance compared to the egregious error of including a 'second France' aka Aquitaine, when a much more distinctive Civilization for the same area, with no overlap in City Names, is readily available: Celtic Gaul. We've even already thrashed out potential leaders for that civ in another Thread, and the Mod Community has already produced a pretty good Civ VI Mod of Gaul - at least half of Firaxis' work is already done for that one...

 

[Zaarin]

Well, Tigranes the Great and Tiridates III aren't as awesome as King Tamar.

Yes, Tamar is more interesting than Tigranes or Tiridates, but Armenia is more interesting than Georgia, so it's a trade off.

I want Coolidge for America because he would be a great counter to Teddy's loud personality. He would give curt one word answers to everything. Plus he would have an accent that hasn't been seen yet:

And he's also my favorite president.

If Eleanor is in, she will lead France

The only civ with which she's vaguely connected that would make less sense than her leading France (where she was queen for five years and had very little influence) would be to make her lead the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Do you think that having Cree makes the Iroquis much less likely? They are pretty close to each other on map..

They're neither related nor particularly similar, so I wouldn't think they'd affect each other.

Eleanor as leader of France would be an improvement over CdM.

No, she wouldn't in the slightest. She never ruled France, not even indirectly as CdM did. The only civs she make the slightest sense for are Aquitaine (which had a great deal of independence from the Crown at the time, but not as much as Brittany, which was not bound to the French Crown at the time), which we don't need, or by squinting England, where she influenced her husband and sons for decades, but which has so many better choices.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Do you think that having Cree makes the Iroquis much less likely? They are pretty close to each other on map..

They are actually further apart than France and England, or France and Germany, or the Aztec heartland and the Mayan Yucatan. They are closer together in the minds of people who know nothing about the language and culture of North American native groups, but I have always thought that one of the purposes of the game was to expose gamers to different cultures and civilizations.

Yes, Tamar is more interesting than Tigranes or Tiridates, but Armenia is more interesting than Georgia, so it's a trade off.

Archeological evidence indicates that Armenia was where people first cultivated wine grapes, and developed the wine press and other mechanisms for producing wine. That alone is a good argument for Armenia as one of the most important civilizations in human history...

No, she wouldn't in the slightest. She never ruled France, not even indirectly as CdM did. The only civs she make the slightest sense for are Aquitaine (which had a great deal of independence from the Crown at the time, but not as much as Brittany, which was not bound to the French Crown at the time), which we don't need, or by squinting England, where she influenced her husband and sons for decades, but which has so many better choices.

Three Cheers to the Design Team for trying to diversify the Civ VI 'Leader Board'.
Minus at least Two Cheers for stretching the definition of 'Leader' to the point of absurdity in order to make that happen.

They run into the little Historical Fact that a great many civilizations simply did not have many or any female leaders in any official sense. So we get Alternate History like the wife of a French king or the wife of a Spartan king being pasted up as Leaders for France or Greece - which makes about as much sense as Dolly Madison as an Alternate Leader for the USA.

IF you want to go the Alternate History Route, at least let us know before selling us the game that you are cutting loose from even the most tenuous connection to historical reality in your design. Alternate History is not a Bad Thing in and of itself (Harry Turtledove has certainly made a good career out of it) but right now, Civ VI appears to simply be doing Bad History, which is an insult to our collective intelligence.

Do more research. Using the same twisted 'logic' that gave us CdM and an argument for Eleanor, we could have Louise, Duchess of Mecklinburg-Strelitz and queen/wife of the King of Prussia leading Germany. She has as much or more going for her than the other two:
1. From her portraits (Napoleonic Wars period, so just pre-photograph) she was stunningly beautiful - never a Bad Thing in a graphically-oriented game
2. Napoleon himself called her "the best man in Prussia" - and she was an implacable foe of his and all enemies of her country
3. As much as anyone, she was responsible for the development of the German General Staff and the German military excellence at the tactical and operational level for the next 150 years.

Alternate History opens up a myriad of possibilities, but it is not the same as making a Civ 'Stand the Test of Time' because it stands Outside of Historical Time: Instead of the Test in place of Standing the Test.

 

[Zaarin]

Archeological evidence indicates that Armenia was where people first cultivated wine grapes, and developed the wine press and other mechanisms for producing wine. That alone is a good argument for Armenia as one of the most important civilizations in human history...

Georgia, actually, but the people who developed those grapes were ancestral neither to the modern Georgians nor the modern Armenians, both of whom moved into the Caucasus in relatively recent times. Whoever they were, I'd lay odds that the common word for wine we find in Semitic, Egyptian, Indo-European, and other languages of the region for wine comes from that language...

They run into the little Historical Fact that a great many civilizations simply did not have many or any female leaders in any official sense.

Not to mention that CdM calls forth the question why France? It's not that there were no great female leaders, but why would you select one for France of all places? While leaving out Civ staples and noted female leaders like Catherine the Great of Russia or Isabella of Castile, no less. In other cases they run into "why that female leader?" Why Cleopatra and not Hatshepsut? Why Victoria and not Elizabeth I?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Georgia, actually, but the people who developed those grapes were ancestral neither to the modern Georgians nor the modern Armenians, both of whom moved into the Caucasus in relatively recent times. Whoever they were, I'd lay odds that the common word for wine we find in Semitic, Egyptian, Indo-European, and other languages of the region for wine comes from that language...

There's some evidence for wine consumption (residue in pottery, etc) as far back as 7000 BCE in China, and about 900 years later in Georgia. But Armenia is the location of the earliest evidence for large-scale wine production (vats, wine press). And of course, that far back none of the three areas were inhabited by the same cultural/ethnic groups that live there now - not even (northern) China.

Not to mention that CdM calls forth the question why France? It's not that there were no great female leaders, but why would you select one for France of all places? While leaving out Civ staples and noted female leaders like Catherine the Great of Russia or Isabella of Castile, no less. In other cases they run into "why that female leader?" Why Cleopatra and not Hatshepsut? Why Victoria and not Elizabeth I?

I have some sympathy for the Design Team. Bet you anything they were told at the start: "We want the game Leaders to be as Inclusive as possible." Unfortunately, History never set out to be inclusive, or to care a Rat's Rear about what is currently considered acceptable culturally. You either learn to grit your teeth and take history as it comes, or you rewrite it to suit your prejudice and produce literary Objects of Derision for the next generation of historians. Or in this case, the Current Crop of Gamers.

What really bites, of course, is that for female Rulers or Leaders, some Civs have an abundance of choices: Elizabeth or Catherine of Russia, for England/Britain Elizabeth I, her sister Mary, Victoria, Mary of William and Mary, even stretch a bit and include Matilda. China, Spain, Egypt. Austria, Italy (if you include some of the 'regional' leaders like Matilda of Tuscany) and many other Civ staples or potential entries all have excellent historical choices for female leaders. But, as you said, that does not mean they should stretch to include Non Leaders like CdM or Eleanor simply because, for France, there are no historically accurate choices.

Besides, if they were going to include a Non-Leader for France, by all means it should have been Cardinal Richelieu - not, shall we say, politically correct, but far more important and influential than just about any other non-monarch in French history...

 

[Zaarin]

There's some evidence for wine consumption (residue in pottery, etc) as far back as 7000 BCE in China, and about 900 years later in Georgia. But Armenia is the location of the earliest evidence for large-scale wine production (vats, wine press).

Hmm, I seem to recall reading about 9,000 BC in Georgia, but I could be mistaken. I think vineyards, grapes, and wine are pretty, but since I don't drink it I don't take a particular interest in it. I feel far more indebted to Ethiopia for its contributions to the world's beverages.

Besides, if they were going to include a Non-Leader for France, by all means it should have been Cardinal Richelieu - not, shall we say, politically correct, but far more important and influential than just about any other non-monarch in French history...

Yeah, that's my other complaint: Richelieu could have filled the same role as CdM but would have made more sense. (Or, if they wanted a woman and weren't bound to making France the spy civ, the same ability and agenda would have fit Wu Zetian.)

 

[Patine]

Hmm, I seem to recall reading about 9,000 BC in Georgia, but I could be mistaken. I think vineyards, grapes, and wine are pretty, but since I don't drink it I don't take a particular interest in it. I feel far more indebted to Ethiopia for its contributions to the world's beverages.

Yirgacheffe over the Demon Drink for the win!

 

[Patine]

As long as nobody mentions the genocide Turkey and Armenia don't really have any issues with one another.

So, that's why their mutual border's closed to all travel and there's no direct diplomatic or consular exchange between the two nations, and Israel, of all nations, does not formally recognize the Armenian Genocide as a genocide because of a peripheral clause of a deal made with Turkey to counter various Middle-Eastern Arab Nations' influences?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah, that's my other complaint: Richelieu could have filled the same role as CdM but would have made more sense. (Or, if they wanted a woman and weren't bound to making France the spy civ, the same ability and agenda would have fit Wu Zetian.)

Surprised you didn't say Queen Elizabeth I which would make more sense than both of them. That being said I have gotten used to CdM, but still would want another leader to give France a different direction.