Civs - thinking out of the box
- Thread starter terentius
- Start date
SuperBeaverInc.
Groucho
terentius said:
"Esquimaux" should be Inuit, and the Thule and Inuit are essentially the same group, so it makes no sense to list both.
Superbeaver: there is very little choice when it comes to early Canadian civs. I found three names for essentially the same thing to at least make the attempt to add some differentiation. What else would you suggest? I'm open to ideas (heck - I'm very keen to hear what other people want to say!), and nothing I've written is suggested as a final, definitive version.
-It's a work in progress (as with everything in life).
As pointed out earlier on the thread, some civs are very tricky to describe in ancient/classical times (see Brazil or some of the African civs), and in many cases I've had to shunt civs or units from one era to another to make up the numbers.
I'm working on the assumption that many people who play Civ will have a strong interest in history, (particularly that of their own country) and may be able to help out.
cheers!
-It's a work in progress (as with everything in life).
As pointed out earlier on the thread, some civs are very tricky to describe in ancient/classical times (see Brazil or some of the African civs), and in many cases I've had to shunt civs or units from one era to another to make up the numbers.
I'm working on the assumption that many people who play Civ will have a strong interest in history, (particularly that of their own country) and may be able to help out.
cheers!
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
i like your idea, and i am not trying to bash it . . . But some of the civs you mentioned(Babylonia and Sumer) were COMPLETELY different nations in the area of Mesopatamia(so were the Akaddians)and it doesnt work to say the were part of the same
That said, i think your whole group name should be Mesopatamia, instead of Iraq and then it would work beacause it is implying a Area, not a nation
Just my .02
That said, i think your whole group name should be Mesopatamia, instead of Iraq and then it would work beacause it is implying a Area, not a nation
Just my .02
AfterShafter
Deity
Wow... Must have been a slow day at work.
Flamingzaroc121: calling Iraq the 'Mesopotamia' Civ has already been done in the revamped versions I posted more recently. There are other civs with similar problems to the one you mentioned (Indochina, Austria, Scandinavia, Levant), in having several nations represented by their collective area rather than individually.
Aftershafter: you have no idea how slow.
Aftershafter: you have no idea how slow.
knigh+
.
terentius said:
A: Hittite (Leader: Shuppiluliuma) (Anatolia is the name of the peninsula, not a civ or nation. Hittites are an Empire, not a unit.)
UU - Hittite chariot (These were the largest and most efficient chariots of the ancient world. They had a crew of three: one driver, one pikeman, one archer. Hittittes were also the first military to use steel extensively. As a result these were like the Panzer divisions of the time, fast and powerful. They would require iron, and have first strike and high combat value I suppose)
C: Phrygia (Leader: Midas: ?, commercial) (actually in this period there are too many different civs in the region, but this one seems to be the largest of the civs in Anatolia in this period. I am excluding conquests by huge empires, ie. Persia, Alexander, Rome. Pontus was too confined to a small strip of eastern Black sea coast. If you intend to include Armenian Kingdom, this is the correct era, not M, but they might be too far to the east. Phrygia is more an Anatolian Kingdom, and they have one of the most famous kings ever. Another good choice would be Lydia, the civ that invented currency and built Temple of Artemis; they would be commercial spiritual)
UB - Tumulus (this burial mound was not uniquely Phrygian, but it is something characteristic of them. You should not put Hagia Sophia under anybody other than its builders, Byzantium, which is listed under Greece. I would be pissed for that if I were Greek. If you go with Lydia instead of Phrygia, then you can have Temple of Artemis as its UW)
M: Seljuks (Leader: Alparslan: aggressive, expansive) (again, Seljuks are an empire, not a unit)
UB - Kervansaray (Persians had these too, but Seljuks built thousands of them in Anatolia, so that no caravan can exist farther than a day's travel. They can either add a trade route or give some bonus % to trade route yield like harbor.)
...or...
UU - Yoruk (settler that can fight. this would be like a small version of mobile city of mongols in the Warlords scenario. Seljuks came as armed Nomads and settled in, so armed settler is most appropriate)
G: Ottomans (Leader: Suleyman the Lawmaker: organized, imperialistic or commercial)
UU - Janissary
I: Turkey (Leader: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: charismatic, creative)
UB - Kiraathane (Turkish village cafe. Every village has at least one cafe, towns and cities have multiple. These are temples of laziness where Turkish men drink tea and play various games. Should be cheap to produce, can turn one food and one hammer into one happiness as people are working less to sit in there.)
Modern: Turkey
UU - Milgem (This is a corvette with top of the line tech and claim of stealth characteristics. Check wiki for it. There is also a main battle tank design going on, but it probably won't appear in the next few years. Whereas first Milgems are already under construction)
UW - Anitkabir (this is an awesome museum/monument/tomb combination of Ataturk. Its effects could be some combination of MtRushmore, Heroic Epic, National Epic (not sum of them, but portions of each) plus not allowing to change away from free religion civic as a disadvantage to balance the advantages. It was completed in 1953, but if you put it in the previous era you'll end up having Ataturk as the leader and his tomb as the wonder)
terentius said:
Kaaba was built in Ancient era. It became the center of Islam when the religion was founded. But it was already the most important religious center in Arabia before Islam.
Hejaz is a region, "the Caliphate" or "Arabs" should be the civ in M.
I have no idea how Petra relates to food bonus.
Hi Knigh+,
thanks for your response - just the sort of thing I was hoping for! My interest tends towards a broader, lighter sweep of history rather than focusing in-depth in any one era. Your obvious deep knowledge is most welcome...
Turkey is one of those places where I went for general area rather than specific nations (hence Anatolia as a civ name and choosing some part of the Hittite army as the Unique Unit), but you're right; there are plenty of civs I could have chosen from.
I did wonder about Phrygia, but I thought it might be too short-lived or (as you said) one of so many that it was easy to overlook. (I did consider the Trojans but decided against it). Again, in my list I mixed and matched civs, units and wonders to give a broad idea of all the nations that have occupied the area rather than linking it to one distinct nation per time. You're right though, it does come across as historically messy.
Saudi Arabia
> I have no idea how Petra relates to food bonus.
I was just thinking a city/temple carved into a desert mountain would ought to have plenty of supplies. Religious bonus would do as well. Whatever bonuses it provides, I think it's still a worthy wonder.
cheers!
T
thanks for your response - just the sort of thing I was hoping for! My interest tends towards a broader, lighter sweep of history rather than focusing in-depth in any one era. Your obvious deep knowledge is most welcome...
Turkey is one of those places where I went for general area rather than specific nations (hence Anatolia as a civ name and choosing some part of the Hittite army as the Unique Unit), but you're right; there are plenty of civs I could have chosen from.
I did wonder about Phrygia, but I thought it might be too short-lived or (as you said) one of so many that it was easy to overlook. (I did consider the Trojans but decided against it). Again, in my list I mixed and matched civs, units and wonders to give a broad idea of all the nations that have occupied the area rather than linking it to one distinct nation per time. You're right though, it does come across as historically messy.
Saudi Arabia
> I have no idea how Petra relates to food bonus.
I was just thinking a city/temple carved into a desert mountain would ought to have plenty of supplies. Religious bonus would do as well. Whatever bonuses it provides, I think it's still a worthy wonder.
cheers!
T
knigh+
.
terentius said:
Happy to help. Feel free to ask more about these.
terentius said:
You might do that for C era perhaps, but in the A era, Hittittes are the obvious dominant power. They developed an Empire over most of Anatolia and stayed for 6 centuries or so.
terentius said:
Well, I went with significance rather than duration of the civs. Thats why I mentioned Lydians as well, they were around for a short while, but made first money, and one of the 7wonders.
By the way, If you really want to include things like Armenia and Pontus civs you could consider having an Eastern Anatolia / Caucasus region that goes Urartu - Armenia - Pontus - Akkoyunlu (Whitesheep) - not sure for I era - not sure for Modern era between the three equally dominant Caucasus civs that exist now. Pontus would have UW-Sumela Monastery. It's awesome, check it out from google or wiki.
knigh+
.
terentius said:
Could have defense bonus as well as religious. I am not sure if it was used so, but that kind of places are quite defensible. There are a few underground cities in Capadoccia which were built next to surface populations, so that they could go inside and close the doors if an enemy arrived.
Just thinking about the whole idea of using civs based on geographical areas rather than nations: how would (for example) someone from Portugal feel if Portugal as a playable civ was simply merged with Spain? I know that many of my fellow Brits get the insane urge to make Celtic civ mods for Wales/Scotland/Ireland, but I'd be happier if it was just a 'British' (as opposed to 'English') civ.
for Korea:
1 - Gochosun
2 - Shilla
3 - Koryo
4 - Koryo (WW: Jikji - the first movable metal type, ahead of Gutenberg)
5 - Chosun (WW: Hangul - the only alphabet deliberately designed by a known inventor, UU: turtle ship - the first ironclad)
6 - Chosun
7 - Chosun
8+ - Korea
1 - Gochosun
2 - Shilla
3 - Koryo
4 - Koryo (WW: Jikji - the first movable metal type, ahead of Gutenberg)
5 - Chosun (WW: Hangul - the only alphabet deliberately designed by a known inventor, UU: turtle ship - the first ironclad)
6 - Chosun
7 - Chosun
8+ - Korea
witten:
Thanks for the ideas! I've recently tweaked the eras a bit, so it would come out as:
A-Gochosun
(Unique Wonder/Unit/ability?)
C-Shilla
(Unique Wonder/Unit/ability?)
M-Koryo
(what bonuses would a Jikji wonder provide? How would it be better than simply reseraching 'Printing'?)
G-Chosun
UU - Turtle Ship (I like this idea a lot; would it carry only military units?)
I-Korea
(Unique Wonder/Unit/ability?)
The problem I had was deciding what wonders or units to give Korea to make it stand out from its neighbours (I couldn't even fall back on the Esquiaux/Inuit/Thule cheat I did with Canada!)
Anyone with a better knowledge of that part of the world (than me) want to help?
Thanks for the ideas! I've recently tweaked the eras a bit, so it would come out as:
A-Gochosun
(Unique Wonder/Unit/ability?)
C-Shilla
(Unique Wonder/Unit/ability?)
M-Koryo
(what bonuses would a Jikji wonder provide? How would it be better than simply reseraching 'Printing'?)
G-Chosun
UU - Turtle Ship (I like this idea a lot; would it carry only military units?)
I-Korea
(Unique Wonder/Unit/ability?)
The problem I had was deciding what wonders or units to give Korea to make it stand out from its neighbours (I couldn't even fall back on the Esquiaux/Inuit/Thule cheat I did with Canada!)
Anyone with a better knowledge of that part of the world (than me) want to help?
I thnk that before setting the evolution path of every single civ we have to define a good chronology.
What do you think about this one?
500-1300 Middle Ages (Early, High, Late) + Thomism that triggers
1300-1600 Renaissance-Age of Discovery + Reformation (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anabaptism, Protestantism...
) that triggers
1600-1800 Age of Reason-Enlightenment + First Industrial Revolution that triggers
1800-1900 Capitalism-Imperialism + Second Industrial Revolution
What do you think about this one?
500-1300 Middle Ages (Early, High, Late) + Thomism that triggers
1300-1600 Renaissance-Age of Discovery + Reformation (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anabaptism, Protestantism...
) that triggers1600-1800 Age of Reason-Enlightenment + First Industrial Revolution that triggers
1800-1900 Capitalism-Imperialism + Second Industrial Revolution
terentius said:Mediterranean Culture art set
(use European units)
Austria: non to be placed here!!!
Italy
500-1300
Papal Empire---> Papa Bonifacio VIII or
?? ---> Federico II di Svevia (Stupor Mundi)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Boniface_VIII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
1300-1600
Signorie ---> Lorenzo de' Medici (Lorenzo the Magnificent) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_de'_Medici
1600-1800
Duchies of Parma and Piacenza ---> Ranuccio II Farnese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranuccio_II_Farnese,_Duke_of_Parma
or
Reign of The Two Sicilies ---> Carlo di Borbone (perhaps too spanish) or Ferdinando I delle Due Sicilie (perhaps too late)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III_of_Spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_I_of_the_Two_Sicilies
1800-1900
Italian Republic ---> Camillo Benso (Count of Cavour)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camillo_Benso,_conte_di_Cavour
Hi maurice.m,
> we have to define a good chronology.
> What do you think about this one?
When rehashing the eras, I wanted to give them only approximate start/end dates, since there are no clean cut-off points; that's why they don't match precisely for each civ.
I'm trying to streamline the eras as much as possible, so having them last 3000, 1500, 1000, 250 and 250 years seemed (to me, at the time) the best approximate fit for 5 eras (as opposed to the four in Civ 4). (I don't count 'Modern' as a separate era in my list above, since it would only apply to the last turns of the game.)
> 500-1300 Middle Ages
> 1300-1600 Renaissance-Age of Discovery
I did think about the Renaissance, but it was only really a Renaissance for European nations. Most others didn't experience the same fall-and-rebirth (certainly not the Egyptians/Arabs, whose science helped fuel the Renaissance, nor China which was busy exploring the near Pacific and Indian Oceans (and further afield if you believe the claims in http://www.1421.tv/ ).
The Aztecs may be said to be reborn from the ruins the Mayans, but not to the same extent that Europe experienced. So I was looking for another term that could apply globally, rather than to a handful of civs. Given the exploration and contact that was taking place with refinements in shipping, 'Global' seemed the best fit, and starting it in 1500 makes it reasonably close to the start of permanent contact between the Old World and the Americas (as good an arbitrary cut-off as any, I suppose)...
> 1600-1800 Age of Reason-Enlightenment
Not sure about the triggers, since they are all very specific to Northern Europe! How about contact with all civs on the map triggering this age? Or something to do with science or free speech (say, liberalism, which would apply to the various branches of liberal Christianity you mentioned)?
> 1800-1900 Capitalism-Imperialism + Second Industrial Revolution
I plumped for 1750 as a middling date for the various scientific and agricultural revolutions that were taking place to begin an Industrial era (Leyden jar electrical capacitor, Watt's improved steam engine etc).
The hardest part in all this (from a European/American point of view) is trying to break away from a very Eurocentric worldview of history...
> we have to define a good chronology.
> What do you think about this one?
When rehashing the eras, I wanted to give them only approximate start/end dates, since there are no clean cut-off points; that's why they don't match precisely for each civ.
I'm trying to streamline the eras as much as possible, so having them last 3000, 1500, 1000, 250 and 250 years seemed (to me, at the time) the best approximate fit for 5 eras (as opposed to the four in Civ 4). (I don't count 'Modern' as a separate era in my list above, since it would only apply to the last turns of the game.)
> 500-1300 Middle Ages
> 1300-1600 Renaissance-Age of Discovery
I did think about the Renaissance, but it was only really a Renaissance for European nations. Most others didn't experience the same fall-and-rebirth (certainly not the Egyptians/Arabs, whose science helped fuel the Renaissance, nor China which was busy exploring the near Pacific and Indian Oceans (and further afield if you believe the claims in http://www.1421.tv/ ).
The Aztecs may be said to be reborn from the ruins the Mayans, but not to the same extent that Europe experienced. So I was looking for another term that could apply globally, rather than to a handful of civs. Given the exploration and contact that was taking place with refinements in shipping, 'Global' seemed the best fit, and starting it in 1500 makes it reasonably close to the start of permanent contact between the Old World and the Americas (as good an arbitrary cut-off as any, I suppose)...
> 1600-1800 Age of Reason-Enlightenment
Not sure about the triggers, since they are all very specific to Northern Europe! How about contact with all civs on the map triggering this age? Or something to do with science or free speech (say, liberalism, which would apply to the various branches of liberal Christianity you mentioned)?
> 1800-1900 Capitalism-Imperialism + Second Industrial Revolution
I plumped for 1750 as a middling date for the various scientific and agricultural revolutions that were taking place to begin an Industrial era (Leyden jar electrical capacitor, Watt's improved steam engine etc).
The hardest part in all this (from a European/American point of view) is trying to break away from a very Eurocentric worldview of history...
> > Mediterranean Culture art set
> Austria: non to be placed here!!!
Why not? Okay, strictly speaking it is more of a Balkan/Adriatic civ, but Austro-Hungary did have a fleet in the Med in WW1, and as a civ, its strategic focus was mostly on defence against its southern neighbours (Ottomans)... I'm trying to look beyond the very 19th/20th century view of Austria+Germany versus Russia.
Also (regarding Italy), I'd love to see Venice in Civilization. If not as part of Italy, then it could (at a push) be snuck in with Austria.
Some of the choices I made may be slightly controversial (or just plain wrong), but that's why I'm asking for feedback!
cheers,
T
> Austria: non to be placed here!!!
Why not? Okay, strictly speaking it is more of a Balkan/Adriatic civ, but Austro-Hungary did have a fleet in the Med in WW1, and as a civ, its strategic focus was mostly on defence against its southern neighbours (Ottomans)... I'm trying to look beyond the very 19th/20th century view of Austria+Germany versus Russia.
Also (regarding Italy), I'd love to see Venice in Civilization. If not as part of Italy, then it could (at a push) be snuck in with Austria.
Some of the choices I made may be slightly controversial (or just plain wrong), but that's why I'm asking for feedback!
cheers,
T
Right, i get the dilemma
Perhaps only one set of eras is a tool simple to manage the complexity of the path of so many cultures.
Beside having a set of eras that force the gameplay toward a predetermined situation is unrealistic.
What about a dynamic era path?
The game, considering the interaction between your politic, economic, philosophical, scientific, artistic performances triggers the proper era.
era = f(interaction: economic, art, philosophy, science)
You just define a set of possible eras (the codomain) and the law of interaction.
Possible risks: triggering a golden era could give too many benifts increasing the chance of triggering a "pepetuum golden era limbo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_function
so eraº = f(interaction: economic, art, philosophy, science)º
if eraº ∈ "golden era" then era¹ = f(interaction: economic, art, philosophy, science)¹ + y% chance era¹≠ "golden era".
Trying to reproduce sin(x)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sine_ani.gif
Perhaps only one set of eras is a tool simple to manage the complexity of the path of so many cultures.
Beside having a set of eras that force the gameplay toward a predetermined situation is unrealistic.
What about a dynamic era path?
The game, considering the interaction between your politic, economic, philosophical, scientific, artistic performances triggers the proper era.
era = f(interaction: economic, art, philosophy, science)
You just define a set of possible eras (the codomain) and the law of interaction.
Possible risks: triggering a golden era could give too many benifts increasing the chance of triggering a "pepetuum golden era limbo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_function
so eraº = f(interaction: economic, art, philosophy, science)º
if eraº ∈ "golden era" then era¹ = f(interaction: economic, art, philosophy, science)¹ + y% chance era¹≠ "golden era".
Trying to reproduce sin(x)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sine_ani.gif
Wow, that's the kind of maths I haven't had to think about since I was about 17!
8-/
Let me get this sorted in my head: In your system, a Golden Age (GA) is triggered not by great people (scientists/artists/engineers etc), but by multiplying together certain values attached to a player's progress in Science, Culture and Finance (broadly speaking). If the product of this is high enough, then you have your GA; the problem is that if it is high enough for a long period of time then you could have a never-ending GA.
The way around this (if I understand you corectly) is to have some sort of minimum value for each era, so that each civ may have one GA per era which ends as soon as the next era begins. Did I follow this correctly?
8-/
Let me get this sorted in my head: In your system, a Golden Age (GA) is triggered not by great people (scientists/artists/engineers etc), but by multiplying together certain values attached to a player's progress in Science, Culture and Finance (broadly speaking). If the product of this is high enough, then you have your GA; the problem is that if it is high enough for a long period of time then you could have a never-ending GA.
The way around this (if I understand you corectly) is to have some sort of minimum value for each era, so that each civ may have one GA per era which ends as soon as the next era begins. Did I follow this correctly?
