Clan of Embers rebalancing

[Valkrionn]

I believe it's simply to make up for some National Units that were cut from the Clan, in an interesting way.

At the least, it would allow for a few spells without going down the Arcane path.

 

[WarKirby]

The clan already have unique art for their arcane line which I'd rather not see wasted, too

 

[readercolin]

Giving it chaos body, and fire 1 for free and channeling 2 is understandable. Having it able to choose ANY level 1 spell, but only 3 level 2 spells is what is counter-intuitive, and I was trying to prevent with that proposal. As for humiliating the amurites, I am planning on fixing that once I actually can figure out how to get the dll to work for me...

Back to the bonus vs units issue. Combat 1 gives a 20% strength bonus. That bonus is applied to the unit that has it. Shock 1 gives a 40% bonus vs melee units. However, that bonus ISN'T applied to the unit that has the promotion, it is applied as a malus against the opponent. Same for a malus that a unit has, like recon units -20% city attack. That is applied to the attacker. What this sums up to is that between the -25% vs melee units, and the +25% vs melee units, the ogre would recieve a -50% malus. And as for defending a city with melee units, if someone wardecs me, I will generally move my stack of doom (which usually is primarily composed of melee units) to the city that they are attacking. The AI,when it has one, does the same, though admittedly I haven't usually seen it have much of one outside of wild mana.

As for my proposal about changes, it was something that I had just tossed out, as I had been viewing Ogres more as large, expensive city crackers, while you apparently have been viewing them more like the mechano's howitzers (aka, viewing them more as strong field artillery).

Lastly, to the warrens. I was pulling the numbers from my last game playing as the clan. I had forgotten that I was playing on epic at that time (that or I was confusing the cost with planar gates). However, with the lower number, I feel that my points become even more valid - why should I trade 2 units for 1 right now at 180 hammers for a 100-120 hammer building that only gives 4/3 for 1 unless I use them immediately? Is the clan really that OP at the moment that that is the case? I don't hear any complaining about the clan and how they need a nerf, and no one I've spoken to rates them in their top 5 civs. Now, I could understand that nerf (because yes, thats what it is) if warrens were free buildings that they get either at the start or once they've researched masonry. But whats the reasoning behind nerfing them now?

-Colin

 

[WarKirby]

Back to the bonus vs units issue. Combat 1 gives a 20% strength bonus. That bonus is applied to the unit that has it. Shock 1 gives a 40% bonus vs melee units. However, that bonus ISN'T applied to the unit that has the promotion, it is applied as a malus against the opponent. Same for a malus that a unit has, like recon units -20% city attack. That is applied to the attacker. What this sums up to is that between the -25% vs melee units, and the +25% vs melee units, the ogre would recieve a -50% malus.

You have an interesting point here. it's not quite how you describe, but it's not working as it should be either. It looks like we have a calculation bug. I shall attempt to poke xienwolf into looking at it. If you could do some more detailed testing it would be very helpful.

why should I trade 2 units for 1 right now at 180 hammers for a 100-120 hammer building that only gives 4/3 for 1 unless I use them immediately?

Not sure what you mean here.

Is the clan really that OP at the moment that that is the case? I don't hear any complaining about the clan and how they need a nerf, and no one I've spoken to rates them in their top 5 civs. Now, I could understand that nerf (because yes, thats what it is) if warrens were free buildings that they get either at the start or once they've researched masonry. But whats the reasoning behind nerfing them now?

The general point here, is an overall rebalancing of a race which is pretty messy and illogical. Some changes will be positive, some not. That's what this thread is here to discuss. Since ogres will be living siege units, one of the original limitations of it not duplicating siege units will be sort of lifted. Another point is that the warrens hasn't been working as described all along, namely the part where the duplicated units don't recieve free xp/promotions from the city. They WERE recieving those things, but the original balance of the building was based around them not getting those. The cost reduction is also a factor. The primary aim here is to make warrens easy to build in every city, and desireable to do so, while also reflecting the flavour of mass, low-quality troops that an orcish army should represent. If the proposed changes don't achieve that, hen more discussion and refining is needed.

Right now, I'm thinking of tacking the NoSupport tag onto undisciplined, or perhaps even onto the Orcish racial promo itself. Ie, the one that removes military support costs for being out of your borders. That way, you'd still pay for having the units, but unlike everyone else, you wouldn't pay more to use them offensively. I believe every other civ pays double maintenance for units outside your borders. Therefore, one disincentive to make war is removed, and easing maintenance problems a bit overall. But that does rely on it working as you described. Are you sure that's how it works ?

 

[Breez]

Another thing is, look at the changes as a whole not piece for piece. Stoneskin Ogres regrowing their protective skin instead of being a single shot thing is a huge deal. Makes those units much more durable and they were monsters already. I got an ogre via Mercenary event the other day as the Bannor and upgraded it to a stoneskin ogre. Even with out regrowing the skin it became the most powerful unit I had very quickly.

hmmm that brings me to a question... Will Stoneskin and War Chief keep the + vs archery and the minus Defensive strength that ogres get? Will they keep the bombard etc?

 

[readercolin]

Ok, now that I see what you're driving at, I can kinda see the point.

For the comment

why should I trade 2 units for 1 right now at 180 hammers for a 100-120 hammer building that only gives 4/3 for 1 unless I use them immediately?

what i meant is that right now, for 180 hammers, i can have a building that doubles the number of units I get - 2 for the price of 1. However, with the unready promotion, unless I use them to get them above level 4 I end up with 2% of the time the promo wearing of, and 1% of the time them going barbarian - therefore, for every 6 units that I build, I end up with it wearing off on approximately 4 of them, while the other 2 are going to end up being barbarian. Yes, this isn't quite exact, but last page someone posted about halflife (what you really should be looking at for these numbers).

As for the Calculations, you can test them with a hunter against a bear (I ended up testing them with a ranger against Gurid). With that ranger (actually, an astrian tracker with combat 4), gurid went from strength 22 to strength 13.4 or something like that (note, he had no promos). It doesn't work exactly like that, but I can't tell quite how, as shown by griffons constantly eating scouts (if it was straight 50%, a griffon and a scout would both be strength 2, but the griffon comes out at a different strength - I think at strength 3). Shock, anti-melee bonuses, etc, work in the exact same way as the ranger's anti-animal/anti-beast. Similarly, it shows in the calculations when you take and attack a city with a hunter, that the hunter recieves -20% strength because of his built in functions. Another big one that many people use here is assassins attacking a city - the assassin goes from strength 6/4 to strength 3/2. However, if the assasin recieves a 50% strength bonus (say from combat 2 and shield of faith), he returns to strength 6/4, showing how the bonuses are additive. Similarly, a hunter of strength 4 attacks a city at strength 3.2, unless it has combat 1 and then it is strength 4 attack.

Hope the calculations part helps.

-Colin

 

[hbar]

May I suggest adding Goblin Sappers at Blasting Powder? Cheap Str 8/4 units with a first strike and explode after combat - great for assaulting cities, but don't stand too close...

 

[Valkrionn]

...Too Warcraftey.

 

[WarKirby]

Goblin sappers would be amusing and awesome

 

[Breez]

and exactly like pyre zombies

 

[WarKirby]

used to be.

Self destructing units wouldn't be so bad if you had to go all the wy to blasting powder for them. The main issue with pyre zombies was that they came so early, and yet were so powerful that you needed nothing else, ever. that kind of ability would be fitting for an arquebus UU though.

but goblin sappers are probably something best done in a module. I'll not do it for now, at any rate.

 

[WarKirby]

Should I add an Ogre racial promotion ? Since I seem to be on a roll with that kind of thing recently.

I'm thinking it'd be logical for them to be weak to Giant Slaying, rather than Orc slaying.

Also related, all dwarves will be able to learn Giant Slaying in patch C

 

[westamastaflash]

I like the ideas presented above about Ogre Mages.

Str 9 Melee Unit with Fire I, Body I, Chaos I, and Channeling II. National Unit max 4.

This gives them access to the following spells:
Blaze, Fireball, Haste, Regeneration, Dance of Blades, Mutation

Upgrade from Lvl 6 Ogres with the Mutated promotion, with the Knowledge of the Ether Tech. This should allow a few randomly mutated ogres to get to ogre mages.

How does that sound?

 

[westamastaflash]

Maybe even take a way Fire I and make them Str 10 or 11.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

There isn't really a reason for sappers to be suicide bomber type units. Sappers in the real world are combat engineers. It would probably be best represented by giving workers the ability to reduce city fortification, perhaps though a new unitcombat_worker promotion line. I think that could be a nice addition in general, since workers tend to become less useful later in the game.

 

[westamastaflash]

Oh and the problem with taking away metal weapons from the National Unit Ogres is problematic I think. I understand the prior point about metal weapons representing an equal fight - but how do you then say that a warrior with a bronze sword vs steel sword is better against a giant ogre - the ogre can break both swords into pieces easily.... I think they should get weapon promos just to keep them scaling along with the enemy units and their weapon promos.

In my humble opinion.

..

 

[readercolin]

They don't get the weapon promos, but compensate for that by having higher base strength. Ex. the phalanx has strength 12, which becomes strength 16 with mithril. Stoneskin Ogre is strength 16, and has the stoneskin promo.

-Colin

 

[WarKirby]

I understand the prior point about metal weapons representing an equal fight - but how do you then say that a warrior with a bronze sword vs steel sword is better against a giant ogre - the ogre can break both swords into pieces easily....

Ogres have thick skin, like armour

A better made sword, pierces the skin better. All but mythril may surely break eventually, but an Iron blade will allow more attacks before the warrier must get a new one.

Also, I've never really liked the concept of "Metal Weapons". Rather, I think it should be "Metal Equipment". I imagine, the unit would have better armour and shields, as well as weapons. Offering more protection from all sorts of things.

 

[westamastaflash]

Also, I've never really liked the concept of "Metal Weapons". Rather, I think it should be "Metal Equipment". I imagine, the unit would have better armour and shields, as well as weapons. Offering more protection from all sorts of things.

Fair enough.

 

[WarKirby]

There isn't really a reason for sappers to be suicide bomber type units. Sappers in the real world are combat engineers. It would probably be best represented by giving workers the ability to reduce city fortification, perhaps though a new unitcombat_worker promotion line. I think that could be a nice addition in general, since workers tend to become less useful later in the game.

I'd implement it as a new unit. Arquebus UU. That any unit with the Goblin racial promo could upgrade to (via a spell). I'd also

And I'd give them a spell rather like crush, ie targets the nearest stack within range, and does massive damage to everything in it. would also reduce city defenses.

I'd give it a chance to work based on defensive strikes. Ie, any unit in the stack capable of making one (which hasn't already this turn) would attempt to strike the sapper. If successful, the spell fails and sapper has a 75% chance to die. If no defensive strikes are made, the goblin blows the crap out of everything and escapes alive.

Would be an amusing mechanic, I think. And a good reason to keep archers around, and/or invest in drill promos. In heavily defended cities, the chance of success would be fairly low, but I'd make them cheap enough that you could throw hundreds at a city until one gets through eventually, since each destroyed one would waste a defensive strike