Clan of Embers rebalancing

[Skitters]

I'm in the not sure Chaos mana fits the Clan very well camp too mainly because Bhall's fall was only a relatively recent event, and that ussenly switching up the mana from a sphere that they had opposed for much of their history doesn't quite fit right. Also....an't remember if anything has been done with the Muris Goblins event...but suddenly the clan would be susceptible to it (could perhaps add a clan only press gang them into service option!)

As for Warrens....personally - from a lore perspective - I think growing in a warren should actually make the unit tougher. It may be just me, but I'd have thought the kids from shabby council estates where they breed like rabbits turn out to be a little tougher than those from posh cities where they don't live in high rise shanty blocks... So perhaps the reverse approach could be considered - make Warrens more expensive, and add a bonus to units built....

 

[WarKirby]

As for Warrens....personally - from a lore perspective - I think growing in a warren should actually make the unit tougher. It may be just me, but I'd have thought the kids from shabby council estates where they breed like rabbits turn out to be a little tougher than those from posh cities where they don't live in high rise shanty blocks... So perhaps the reverse approach could be considered - make Warrens more expensive, and add a bonus to units built....

This is true, tough kids from the estates tend to come out a lot tougher than posh kids.

But, you know who's even tougher than poor kids? The US Marine Corp.
That's what trained bannor soldiers are.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The pre-fall Bannor weren't particularly opposed to Chaos. Junil was revered by some of the Age of Magic Bannor, but his cult was pretty minor as he has sworn not to get involved in creation. The crusades of that era were rather turbulent and chaotic. The Bannor from whom the Clan are descended were in the habit of setting everyone on fire regardless of their alignment, knowing that the sacred flames would be harmless to those who did not deserve to be punished. When good can be defined as that which will survive trial by fire, one need not discriminate between whom to burn and has no need of any other law t decide what is right. I suspect that The Clan has not fully come to grasp that fire is no longer the perfect judge, jury and executioner. They might still believe that anything that is consumed by fire is evil and deserves to be destroyed.

 

[WarKirby]

These are the values I'm thinking of for ogre siege abilities:

<iCombat>8</iCombat>
<iAirCombat>3</iAirCombat>
<iAirCombatLimit>50</iAirCombatLimit>
<iCollateralDamage>20</iCollateralDamage>
<iCollateralDamageLimit>80</iCollateralDamageLimit>
<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>4</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
<iBombardRate>5</iBombardRate>

As far as siege goes, they're weaker than catapults. 5, rather than 15 bombard. This is generally because you'll have a lot more of them. They'll have ranged attack strength though, with collateral on it, and on their direct attacks, too. All ogres will share the same siege capability.

Also, is an Ogre racial promotion a good idea? They don't really seem too orcish, being various shades of orange/yellow/purple, rather than green.

 

[WarKirby]

And what does everyone think of adding a stable UB, "Ogre Den" as a requirement to build ogres, and since the clan won't need stables anyway.

As an aside, the Ogre Magi will be a cannon UU. Miainly just to make it appear in the list of UUs for the civ. Any thoughts on tech requirements?

Currently I'm thinking that it should require Alteration and/or Elementalism, and a Mutated Ogre (upgrade via spell)

 

[Valkrionn]

There's a very simple tweak you can make to get ALL unique units to show for a civ, regardless of whether they're a standard unit or not... Including Heroes, and UBs as well.

In one of the files in python/Screens, will look for it on Monday if noone else finds it... Ahwaric put it in Orbis, I merged it into FFPlus.

 

[Iceciro]

Currently I'm thinking that it should require Alteration and/or Elementalism, and a Mutated Ogre (upgrade via spell)

No.
If it requires two or more of the upper level techs, it's not going to be worth too much more, given its position on the tech tree.
I say make it require KOTE. Seems logical, since without those other techs they'll be limited just to the Clan's mana anyways.

 

[Valkrionn]

Code to show unique units:

CvPediaCivilization.py, line 139.

if (iDefaultUnit > -1 and iUniqueUnit > -1 and iDefaultUnit != iUniqueUnit) or (iUniqueUnit > -1 and gc.getUnitClassInfo(iUnit).isUnique()):

It already shows in FF 051, though I may have merged against that when wiping out some of the Better Pedia changes, not sure. There's a similar line for buildings.

 

[Gromblmompf]

Uruk-Hai are Orcs with the Formation promo.

 

[westamastaflash]

No.
If it requires two or more of the upper level techs, it's not going to be worth too much more, given its position on the tech tree.
I say make it require KOTE. Seems logical, since without those other techs they'll be limited just to the Clan's mana anyways.

I agree. Upgrade from mutated lvl6 ogre with KOTE...

 

[WarKirby]

I'm just a bit concerned that KoTE is a bit early to be gaining access to lv2 spells. That would give the clan some of mthe earliest powerful magic there is, which doesn't feel right, even if it's only a small selection of them, Body and Fire are two of the best, and Mutate would make it easy to mass produce more ogre Magi up to and constantly replenishing the national unit cap..

I chose cannon as the ogre Magi's UU replacement for a reason. They will essentially be incredible siege engines, having both a normal bombard, and the ability to summon fireballs for more bombarding. You're likely to have KotE before you get iron working, which would make it just a matter of getting a mutated ogre by luck from your chaos mana, and you'd never have to worry about siege again. I kind of think it's a bit much to get so early.

And what is everyone's thoughts on Uruk hai as a name for the champion UU? Can we think of anything better? It seems a bit too lotr-ish for me, but I'll go with it if there are no better ideas.

 

[Iceciro]

Anything but Uruk-Hai, please.
Even if you have to name it Orc Tough, or just Orc Champion. I mean, if Champion is good for pretty much every single other civ...

 

[Skitters]

you could go the warhammer route with Black Orc....

Or you could go for something like chieftain, boss, big boss, heavy, slugger

 

[UNIT 666]

The farther FFH is from Warhammer, the better.

 

[Milaga]

And what is everyone's thoughts on Uruk hai as a name for the champion UU? Can we think of anything better? It seems a bit too lotr-ish for me, but I'll go with it if there are no better ideas.

I like the concept of having to get a naturally mutated ogre up a few levels in order to get an Ogre Mage. Especially if they are national units. Unfortunately, giving them access to mutate negates this and I can't really think of a way around it. But I still think that Ogre Magi should be a bonus ... basically an ogre but with Channeling 2.

I like Uruk-hai. I've always been baffled as to why they were never co-opted into D&D. It is both appropriate and a nice homage to the master that the whole genre is indebted to.

 

[westamastaflash]

I'm just a bit concerned that KoTE is a bit early to be gaining access to lv2 spells. That would give the clan some of mthe earliest powerful magic there is, which doesn't feel right, even if it's only a small selection of them, Body and Fire are two of the best, and Mutate would make it easy to mass produce more ogre Magi up to and constantly replenishing the national unit cap.

Ok, how about Alteration?

 

[WarKirby]

Alteration maybe. But a concern here, is that by gaining such easy access to fireball throwing ogres, the usage of normal ogres as siege weapons would be rather defunct. It really needs to have some requirement that isn't so easy to get to, so that you have to manage with normal ogres for a while at least. Anything that you're reasonably likely to get before iron working, isn't really suitable as a requirement unless some other non-tech-based requirement is there to delay it.

Maybe KotE and Blasting Powder ? Strengthen it enough to compensate for being relatively late. Blasting powder is along the metal line anyway, so it's something the clan would be getting to sooner or later. Does it still require bowyers? I've been meaning to change that if so...

How about I give them Force I for free as well, and put them at blasting powder. Then in the lategame, they'd be a range-focused ogre variant. Force II giving them magically enchanted rocks to throw

 

[WarKirby]

How about "Hulking Brute" for champion UU

Incidentally, the orc champion looks like this:

 

[UNIT 666]

Champion sounds best. Hulking Brute makes me think of a giant Warrior Orc, not one that is a veteran fighter.

It's interesting how his colossal teeth are of the same make as the spikes on his armour. Or are the spikes part of him? :l

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Hulking makes it sound stupid, but Brute alone could be ok.

As orcs age their bones grow out of their skin and develop spikes, so those are part of him. (Very young orcs have no such protrusions, and could be mistaken for ugly humans.)