Clashing of Empires - A standard map version of Rhye's Civilization Expanded

[V. Soma]

Pax Romana:
Well, AD 200-300 is OK, as long as tech is in the end of ancient age or so...

You said your other test was into the 1700s...
Who were the big ones? How were the Asians?
I need reports!
(also for the fun of it!)

 

[V. Soma]

Another annoying thing about Pax Romana
(just watch it DEBUG mode):

Tha AI often begins building it
BUT THEN switches to something else,
especially when at war...
e.g. starts building, it would be, say, 6 turns,
then, when it would be 2 or even 1 turn(s) remaining,
it switches to a swordsman or...yes, swordsman...

 

[V. Soma]

Sometimes I think I should open a thread

"The Pax Romana-problem in CoE"

 

[narmox]

lol

maybe ask in the creation forum what makes the AI build certain wonders over other things, even when at war...

I think the romans had just gotten in the middle ages when they built PR. They sure didn't build anything else except Academy before PR, this time around, and I didn't help them get in the middle ages because I was planning war against them soon

Details on my test games to come later... gotta sleep.

 

[narmox]

Okkkkkay I couldn't resist loading up civ3 and giving an update before going to bed

v4 game as celts (where I couldn't built Shake's theatre)

ahh yes this is the one where I said empires were more stable.. That was before I conquered Carthage So there were no HUGE continent-spanning empires (like a whole Ethiopian-only Africa for example), and all civs mostly matched each other. The Scands even stood up against the Mongols this time, barely losing ground. Babylonia and India resisted each other, and China tried to conquer spain but failed (2 swordsmen and 1 firelancer VS muskets and fanatics? haha)

Interestingly, Babylon got a colony city in South America!

I don't remember much details, except I didn't feel like fighting off Mongolia, Scandinavia, Rome, China and Ethiopia, so I started a new game instead

 

[V. Soma]

Hey, I just wanted to ask when you get your sleep!

THANKS for the map!

Pretty nice, everyone is alive...

I have an idea:
I think the two black-African civs should meet at the very beginning,
say a Zulu boat at Joruban coast at first turn?
It would be then eaten up the barb galleys...

 

[narmox]

another v4-test as the Celts, with small changes to allow Shake's theatre in england and switch dyes and game in Carthage.

This one is more interesting, I opted for an early scouts (1 boat, 2 scouts, met everybody except Jorubans by 1000 BC or even earlier); and an swordsmen rush over Scandinavia and got their 2 baltic cities before they could build Temple of Odin, which I built myself in England right before I got Chivalry

Therefore northern europe is mine, but I didn't get Spain. No matter. then I traded and traded and traded for science to keep up ahead. The AI was making much more money this time so I got a lot of gold/turn deals that neared 10-20 gpt. Makin good money.

Rome tried conquering England as I mentioned before but I pushed them back with swordsmen and galleys. Finally I got knights and firearms and nearly the end of the middle ages, and conquered Burgidala in 1370 AD, 1 turn after I declared war on Rome. Burgidala is that city in western France. Despite Pax Romana, their archers fell easily to my Crusaders coming from Scotland.

Rome is strong though, and they have all their Christian wonders so culture flips are highly probable. I will probably continue this conquest by taking 2 different routes with my armies:

- northern spain (to get Pax Romana for myself and deny it to Rome), and straight for Italy (for all those juicy roman christian wonders).

Spain/Carthage: Rome conquered one city (Carthago Novo, bottom left of Spain) and destroyed the other one near the horses, in my 1st war against Rome when I got Bab, Scand and Carth to fight against Rome.

I am one of the richest civs, and definitely the most advanced, and starting to become powerful. I haven't had my golden age yet, but I will trigger it soon with Longbowmen

Rome had their golden age in 90 BC, a sci leader a few turns later, and built PR in 230 AD. We should check if they always build PR after their golden age. They might not have any relation as rome often gets in war and they have legionaries and hoplites as unique units.. They built leaning tower in 850 AD!

In 1370, I already am 7 techs away from Industrial Age, have a forbidden palace in Grobina, will have Eastern Orthodoxy pretty soon (if I don't have it already),

In Africa, Asia and America, I have no idea how the situation is as I haven't watched the replay yet. Watching it now...

Japan built the Great Wall again. Maybe check if China still is able to build it (I don't think you changed terrain in China though)

Babylonians built Temple of Baal in 1300, and Carthage built Gilgamesh very early in the game. Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Asians and African and American civs seem balanced still! No mega powerhouse overwhelming empire (yet).

This game I will continue for sure!

oh some stats:

Turn #215 (1370 AD)
% of world area: 5 --- Rome: 5
% of pop: 14 --- Babylon: 8

Culture in Londinium: 1274 (weak!) --- Nagasaki: 2513 (WOw not roma!)
Culture: 2856 (the price of early war!) --- India: 5670 (NOT ethiopia or Rome!)

Score: 443 -- Ethiopia: 467

1370 AD:

 

[narmox]

Hey, I just wanted to ask when you get your sleep!

these past 2 nights I was working from 7pm till 7am, that's why it appears I never sleep

THANKS for the map!

Pretty nice, everyone is alive...

I have an idea:
I think the two black-African civs should meet at the very beginning,
say a Zulu boat at Joruban coast at first turn?
It would be then eaten up the barb galleys...

Maybe.. Do you suggest this because they are too weak?

 

[V. Soma]

before they could build Temple of Odin, which I built myself in England right before I got Chivalry

Hm, all is fine but I do want Odin specified so that it can be built strictly only
in the land of Scandinavia...
(maybe tie it to furs AND horse in radius will help - gonna check it)

Japan built the Great Wall again. Maybe check if China still is able to build it (I don't think you changed terrain in China though)

I haven't changed China... only a bit...
OK, will check that...

Babylonians built Temple of Baal in 1300, and Carthage built Gilgamesh very early in the game. Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Yeah, I myself also think so - hm, I will check how Babylon is
specific as resources and will adjust these wonders...

Asians and African and American civs seem balanced still! No mega powerhouse overwhelming empire (yet).

This is fair enough - eventually somebody
must overcome some other, though...

It would be just good if it is not the same way every game...

This game I will continue for sure!

And rightly so! Up to victory!

 

[narmox]

Unless the Celts conquer Grobina or southern Spain, they cannot build Temple of Odin because they do not have horses.. So it is very much tied to Scandinavia already! Besides, if the game is always the same it gets boring.. It's fun if the Celts are able to build ToO after all the hardships to conquer Scandinavia

Babylon and Carthage - I don't mind really that either can build the wonders of the other, as they are both PAG/ISL.. Just that 2 games in a row it was the same, Babs built Baal and Carthage built Gilg (which I had no idea existed before, so something must be wrong with Babs if I never saw them build it before).

Powerhouses - Maya seems to be becoming one in America. Although in some games it's the Iroquois.

 

[narmox]

Iron Works can't be built in Scotland anymore because the iron in Ireland (Ironland? haha) is too far...

 

[narmox]

argh I made it until the 1860's but then civ3 crashed

So I had to reload in 1828, played 1 turn but then had to go. Switched to Democratic Republic government yum!

Going to have sanitation soon, then make my way up to flight and motorized transport, shouldn't take too long, probably be there long before 1950 unless I get in a major war.

Apart from me, Zululand and Ethiopia has reached the industrial age (thanks to all the money they pay me), Scands have reached the middle ages sometime in the 1300's when I took pity on them and sold them Currency. Japan isn't too far behind, as are China, Babylon, Rome and Carthage. 1 or 2 techs and they get to the industrial age.

I chose not to pursue my European war in the 1300-1400's because it would've taken too many resources. I started off a golden age when a legion lost to longbowmen, and used those 20 turns for money/science/building rather than fighting! It paid off well: Newton's Univ, India Trading Company (built in Norway lol), Eastern Orthodoxy, Women's Suffrage coming soon, Encyclopedia (YES I got it finally ), factories building quickly, most city improvements everywhere, catching up to culture whew!

Definitely my best game in CoE so far!

Here are a few pics for your viewing pleasure!

1390 AD: Holy War built in Jerusalem! Nice
1448 AD: Just as soon as my war with Rome stopped, Black Death struck Londinium, then the other 2 cities! I lost 2 workers that way
1832 AD: This is where I am now. Look, everybody's still alive! Poor Scands though, if only they knew the only reason I don't conquer them is because in case the Mongols invade me, I will sign an alliance with Scands to provide a buffer zone while I militarize myself haha. Oh and because I'm mostly nice

The Roman city in Ukraine was built on ruins of a viking city way back in the first roman war. My city just east of that one is Birka, which I got in exchange for peace with Scandinavia after I got Grobina and Aarhus on the Baltic.

Now I go to sleep

 

[V. Soma]

NEW CHANGES AND CONCEPTS

Iron in Ireland:
Must be that far away, otherwise AI would not put 5. Celtic city in Ireland.
Maybe coal should be put in Ireland to let it have Iron Works?

I changed wonder resources:

Temple of Baal: dyes and wines in radius (so Carthage can have it more easily)
Gilgamesh: wine and incense (so it is for Babylon)

New concept with religious/happiness wonders:

Eastern Orthodoxy: needs furs and horses in radius, plus you need palace!
It is a religional thing, this wonder, so you need to turn your empire
based (with palace) in Eastern Europe to have this!

I will do the same kind of policy with
Black Stone: you will need local resources and palace...

To do the same with Potala Palace will be difficult,
but I will find out something...

Now, the Pax Romana misery:
Arrgh, in a new test Rome again forgot to have it and built Leaning Tower...
I hate this!
So:
I will push Leaning to a later phase, say linked with Humanism or something...
What I want is that Rome should have nothing wonder to build
in the early middle ages... except Pax Romana (if that is the case).

 

[narmox]

NEW CHANGES AND CONCEPTS
Iron in Ireland:
Must be that far away, otherwise AI would not put 5. Celtic city in Ireland.
Maybe coal should be put in Ireland to let it have Iron Works?

Perhaps! There needs to be at least one nation who can build Iron Works I think Ethiopia can do it too? I dont' remember...

Now, the Pax Romana misery:
Arrgh, in a new test Rome again forgot to have it and built Leaning Tower...
I hate this!
So:
I will push Leaning to a later phase, say linked with Humanism or something...
What I want is that Rome should have nothing wonder to build
in the early middle ages... except Pax Romana (if that is the case).

Have you tested to see if it only builds PR after its golden age? Perhaps even force Rome to have a golden age early to see if it builds PR earlier?

Also: don't penalize human players just because the AI is stupid

Well, I have to stay away from civ3 for a few days, just because I need to do other things lol, and because I don't want to destroy my hands. I will be back soon, with hopefully a new v4-test or even v4!

 

[V. Soma]

I think pushing Leaning Tower to a bit later phase
(it may be linked with Siegecraft, too),
is OK, historically this is a wonder of the 13-14th century...
And in effect it could be giving defense after the PR is expiring, or so...
(so then Leaning could be given with Firearms!)

 

[V. Soma]

I had tests yesterday...
The new concept seems to work for PR:

When Rome reaches middle age,
the AI can't find any wonders to build with the first techs
(Leaning Tower now comes with Humanism!),
and goes for Pax Romana!
(if not sooner)...
Then comes the Papal States...

I have a a NEW SMALL WONDER
for the AMERCAN CIVS (and AFRICAN CIVS?):

CHRISTIANITY

It uses the Temple of Mount graphics (for the Americans)
and gives 2 happy faces in all cities...
The civ needs tobacco in radius and palace in city...

I try to give the same (CHRISTIANITY /#2/)
for the Africans, too,
using the Mausoleum graphics,
and with the criteria
elephants in radius + palace...

I set ALL these happiness middle age religious wonders
so that they have "continental mood effect":
I just hope it means they have effect ONLY
on the continent where it is built...

The problem with the African Christianity is that
technically it is on the same continent as Europe and Asia (!),
therefore it is possible that a civ has BOTH, say,
Eastern Orthodoxy and (African Christianity),
resulting in way TOO MANY happy faces...

SO maybe it is the "NO" to the African Christianity?
But hey, they would need it...
(especially Joruba and Zulu)

Hmm...

 

[V. Soma]

Another problem is that development is too fast
if the human plays with an European civ...

I am talking about Emperor level:

Playing with the Celts,
I was in middle ages in AD 50...

But when playing with Maya, it was only in AD 600 I got into middle age,
and now in 1650 or so the world reached Industrail age,
which is all fine...

I think this discrepancy is something
we have to live with...

Or maybe just set the game so
that we have a bit longer ancient age?

LET'S VOTE ON IT!

 

[Lachlan]

Set the rules for Regent Level please

increase ancient age

 

[narmox]

Playing with the Celts,
I was in middle ages in AD 50...

But when playing with Maya, it was only in AD 600 I got into middle age,
and now in 1650 or so the world reached Industrail age,
which is all fine...

I think this discrepancy is something
we have to live with...

Or maybe just set the game so
that we have a bit longer ancient age?

LET'S VOTE ON IT!

I say leave it like that. Even though I'd like a longer ancient age (longer in # of turns, not years), it'd take too many modifications and tests to balance it properly. Speaking as a Monarch player, the timeline is satisfactory. I usually reach the middle ages between 100-600 AD, Industrial age by the 1700s, and modern age in the mid 1950s - then the timeline starts disrupting again, as I get computers around 2000 or so, but I can live with that too, really.

For the Maya, well it's kinda realistic that they develop slower in the Americas I think I haven't tried playing with those yet, so I can't say much about it.

For the African christianity wonder, there's no worry. You already set Eastern Orthodoxy, St Peter's, and Papal States to only be built in a city with Palace. So the AI will never build both ,and the human player will either spend all his time palace jumping or also not build both.

 

[V. Soma]

OK, boys, I had a FULL test with Maya!
Emperor level
Space Ship victory in 2021!

It was a lovely game and a close call:
Cuzco had about 11200 culture (victory would be 12000)
China had 32100 culture (33000 is victory)

I had it with 5 cities in the land that is meant to be as Mayan homeland...
Trading was the key, of course... and being peaceful

History went with quite interesting curves, here is a review in 6 phases: