Clive1 - Monarch (Training ?) game

[Sir Clive]

No, CivRpSuite is qualified for use in GotM, IIRC. You can download it from the Utilities forum...

Thanks MSTK - I will go and check it out.

 

[MSTK]

I'm going to play it tonight.

 

[scoutsout]

...I don't think I have ever razed a city.

You don't know what you're missing. It's not as much fun as kissing a pretty girl, but you'll never have to buy a house for an AI.

I normally play a fairly peaceful game, build lots of libraries / temples early on and try to stuff captured cities full of troops and use multiple clowns to keep them quiet (usually resulting in multiple starvation).

Starving cities down is a valid tactic, and usually works... until you get to this part:

Normally my superior culture <snip>

As you guys progress through the levels, you will find it increasingly difficult to maintain cultural parity with the AI. At Demi-God, it's just about impossible; the AI "production bonuses" (actually discounts) result in AI cultural monsters. This is when "raze and replace" makes sense.

opposition military superiority

@Bede: We'll have to work on this theme.

Winning battles when you're outgunned is challenging fun. Winning battles when you're outclassed and outgunned is downright satisfying (but still not as much fun as kissing a pretty girl).

Don't worry, we'll get you guys there on tactics. MSTK has a pretty good grasp on Maneuver. Bede posted some good notes on logistics... "putting the pieces in place" so that the war is decided before the first shot is fired.

@Bede: remind me to work on these themes:

*defending with offensive units/skirmishing
*combined arms
....and something I've been trying to nail down a term for something that you've no doubt used...that I used extensively in Bede2... for now I'll call it "flatfoot skirmishing"...

 

[MSTK]

I've played out half my turns.

<b>Pre-Turn</b>
See that we are very conservative - move both sliders up 2 notches for a gain of 11 GPT.

Turn 1
The Curragh discovers a 2-tile island.
Kummanni Founded near incense. Started on Swordsmen.

Turn 2
Egyptians and Japanese start on Temple of Artemis.

Turn 3
Indian Troops fortify in our territory. Let them be.

Turn 4
Nothing

Turn 5
Whoops. India declares war and attacks Iron River. They phail, but they catch a worker roading Incense.
On lighter note, We Love the King Day is declared in Riverbend.

...what happens now?

THERE IS WAR

So...are we doomed?

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Are you doomed? Certainly not!!

They failed in their attempt, which is very good. Apparently they decided they wanted that iron.

Sometimes it's better to tell them to move, especially if it's a couple units. Let them declare war and then you get the first attack.

What kind of units are they attacking with? It will probably be a couple turns before they send a few more units at you, so you have time to round up a response force. Haven't you been building units all along getting ready for Japan?

A screenshot is always more helpful to evaluate a situation....

 

[MSTK]

Yes, we have a pretty large force of Swordsmen and Chariots, enough to follow up with my Japan Plan, in fact.

But India seems to be attacking with only Warriors.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Yes, we have a pretty large force of Swordsmen and Chariots, enough to follow up with my Japan Plan, in fact.

But India seems to be attacking with only Warriors.

Well then I don't see what the problem is? Ghandi has not lived up to his teachings, so he needs a whuppin.

Take a smallish force of swords (4-7) and kill a few of his units, and maybe raze a city or two. He'll sign peace quickly enough, and he'll get to live for another day. Just because someone attacks you, doesn't mean it has to be genocide time.

Hurt him, take peace for whatever he has, and then refocus on Japan.

Probably want to leave the 3MC's home, IIRC you're still a despot.

 

[scoutsout]

Oh man - WAR!!!! And Ghandi is a long way from his War Elephants!!! WooHooo!!!

Quick... post a screenie!!!

No - seriously .... take a deep breath. This will sound counter-intuitive at first:

When at war, play slowly.

Read that again. Think it through, and play decisively.

Take an inventory of what you have available to counter India's assault.

1) What cities can they threaten, and in what numbers?
2) What is on hand to reinforce those cities?
3) Where do you have barracks?
4) What units can reach the threatened cities?

 

[MSTK]

Okay, I'm out for the night. I'll finish playing tomorrow.

 

[Bede]

Whoops. India declares war and attacks Iron River. They phail, but they catch a worker roading Incense.
On lighter note, We Love the King Day is declared in Riverbend.

...what happens now?

THERE IS WAR

So...are we doomed?

Au contraire. It's Gandhi that will take the beating. , so he is both outclassed and outgunned and will soon be overwhelmed.

Warriors and spears are no match against concentrated swords and his largest town is only pop5 (the others are all pop1).

BTW Monarchy is available for purchase. It will cost an arm and a leg.

Wrote scout:
"1) What cities can they threaten, and in what numbers?
2) What is on hand to reinforce those cities?
3) Where do you have barracks?
4) What units can reach the threatened cities?"

Answer those questions then deliver the whupping!

Last question:
5) Can we sign any allies and do we want to?

 

[Sir Clive]

BTW Monarchy is available for purchase. It will cost an arm and a leg.

Can't really do any analysis as I am at work at the moment but I still think we should avoid despotic GA if we can . I agree with whoever it was who said lets just capture a couple of cities and make peace. We should be able to do that easily without using our 3MC and triggering the GA. How much is an arm and a leg worth ?

 

[Bede]

Construction, Mapping and about 300g.

If we are going to avoid despot GA the Chariots at Ugarit need to get out of Dodge. We may lose the town but right now it's more a burden then a help.

I think hold off on the Monarchy buy until Gandhi is willing to talk peace, take a couple of towns from him in the deal, if possible, then buy and revolt. His "army" is pitiful. We have a lot of warriors we can upgrade right now (even though they are conscripts or regulars they will make effective defenders in the border towns and will be useful for picking off Gandhi's attackers.

We have enough cash and gpt and luxes right now that we can afford to strip the MP's from the interior, raise the lux tax if necessary, and there is no need to spend money for more than minimum research, and we can even reduce it to zero and hire a scientist somewhere.

Here's a plan for discussion-
Beef up the frontier garrisons. Kill any Indian that show his face at Kanish, Kummanni, Vineyard, Oasisland. Let Gandhi exhaust himself against our frontier towns. Wait for the closest Indian towns to either grow to two or exapnd their borders. Take a couple, then a couple more for peace, or maybe Monarchy if he learns it, revolt, wait twenty turns, build some WC, then finish him off, or go play whack the Japanese.

 

[scoutsout]

Are horsemen an option for you guys?

 

[Tarkeel]

3MC would replace the chariot, so no Scout It's swords or 3MC

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

No, unfortunately no Horses. That really hurts, because the 3MC are wheeled, and thus the Hittites lack a fast ancient unit that could cross Mountains and Jungles. That is especially 'annoying' when you try to handle a stack of lousy Archers sitting on a mountain next to a city

 

[Sir Clive]

Wait for the closest Indian towns to either grow to two or exapnd their borders. Take a couple, then a couple more for peace, or maybe Monarchy if he learns it, revolt, wait twenty turns, build some WC, then finish him off, or go play whack the Japanese.

I understand that if you capture a size 1 city it will end up as rubble. Judging by your first sentence Bede you are saying that if the city has expanded it's borders but is size 1 you will capture it ? Is that true ? I wasn't aware of that (although there is an awful lot I don't know !) !

From your remarks I think you are saying we should capture rather than raze - presumably because the Indian are so weak we won't have any problem with these towns rioting for any length of time ?

 

[scoutsout]

I understand that if you capture a size 1 city it will end up as rubble. Judging by your first sentence Bede you are saying that if the city has expanded it's borders but is size 1 you will capture it ? Is that true ?

The rule on auto-razing is a two part rule. For a city to auto-raze, it must:

1) Be Size 1
2) Not have had a border expansion.

If a city is size 2 when you take it, or the city's borders have had a cultural expansion, it will not auto-raze.

In the early game at this level culture flips are much less risky, because time is a big factor in the accumulation of culture.

Someone mentioned bugging out with the 3MCs. At the moment I'm wondering if it is really worth sacrificing a tactical (perhaps strategic) edge just to avoid an early despotic GA. It might be possible to use this GA to gain an upper hand on all of the neighboring AI.

@Bede: How much would be given up by forgoing the opportunity to just run over Ghandi with the 3MCs right now?

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Couple really quick things:

A town will be autorazed unless:
A) it has accumulated culture
B) it has more than one citizen
C) the one citizen is of your own nationality

Scout - they already have a pretty decent "upper hand" on the AI's. Waiting for a revolt will let them expand their lead that much more. As I mentioned, I would basically just "prune" India a bit and take everything you can get for peace. That will have the effect of stunting them permanently, and then focus can be returned to Japan, once out of despotism. Two gains for the price of one, effectively.

Hmm. I seem to be contradicting you a lot lately, Scout. Don't take it personally.

EDIT: It would seem the difference of the 3MC's would be a difference of eradicating India vs just crippling them.

 

[MSTK]

Aren't cities un-razed if they have atleast 1 culture?

 

[Tarkeel]

Needs to be atleast 10 culture, aka border expansion