Clive1 - Monarch (Training ?) game

[MSTK]

The Indian Wars

BATTLE PLAN
Ugarit houses 2 3MC. In previous planning, we declared the war and are able to stock atleast 5 there. However, 2 3MC should be enough to take out Karachi (Size 3; 0 Culture). Also, we have a scouting who is now obsolete who will be joining the march.
Aside from that, every single one of India's cities (asides from Delhi and maybe Bangalore, whose pop is blocked by Fog of War) is Size 1. The only one with culture is Lahore, which is conveniently right off of our Kummani. It appears that India wants that iron. After cleaning map, we see that India indeed has no Iron.
So, our plan is to attack Karachi and Lahore, the only fruitful cities. Then we wait.
We will try to avoid a Golden Age as much as possible, so Lahore is only attackable by SWORDSMEN! Japan is hogging Monarchy.
We have 9 Swordsmen. Things should go out well. We also have no artillery, but that should not matter.

Turn 5 (Cont.)
Withdraw workers in danger
Pay Egyptians 275 & RoP to help in war. We save 25 Gold by adding RoP.
Pay Russia 137 & RoP to help in war. We save 57 Gold by adding RoP.
Pay Japan 248 & RoP for Miltary Alliance, just in case India gets to them first. We save 33 Gold by adding RoP.
Nobody else poses a threat to us or India.

Turn 6
A Barbarian Horsemen appears from nowhere and kills two of our workers. Why do they have to have 2 movement points?!
Indian Warrior attacks one of our three roads leading to spices.
Just noticed that Russia has Odenburg in between India and us.

Turn 7
Arabs building Hanging Guardens. Just FYI.
I hate spyware.
Our good old Conscript Warrior takes out an Indian Veteren at full health. Finally we can have incense again.
Osgiliath founded on top of horses next to river. It is in a prime spot to attack Japan.
I can only describe it as "WTH" after hearing a 3-Man Chariot attack for the first time. The two face off against a single Indian Spearman. One dies, the other runs

Turn 8
Surge of 3MCs are produced.
Army of Swordsmen finally arrive at Kummani. Sent towards Lahore.
Samuha founded near Game.
I am running out of things to do with workers

Turn 9
Japan starts on Hanging Guardens
Our first Galley is made. Our first Catapult is started. Galley heads towards Hattusas to pick up Settler.
Calcutta attacked with One Swordsmen and One Warrior. Swordsmen kills and Warrior is killed in a 1 HP on 1 HP tie-breaker.

Turn 10
Japan brings Arabia into the war. Not really going to help.
Calcutta is razed.

END-DYNASTY ANALYSIS
The Seige on Karachi failed. But I have a gut feeling that Lahore will not stand against 9 Swordsmen.
Calcutta looks like a good place to plant a Settler.
A galley is heading towards Hattusas to bring our reign overseas.
We have 7 3MC that I am too afraid to use.

 

[Bede]

As you can tell I am partial to the notion of fighting a war of limited engagement. As Sesn pointed out the Hittites already have the upper hand, which can only grow stronger with time. On the other hand, we could easily waste the Indians (pop1 towns with warriors and spears for garrisons are but grist for a sword stack milling) but we would then have to hassle the Egyptians and Russians for the land. So, why not let the cities grow, or expand their borders, then add them to the fold.

Flip risk at this stage with villages is minimal, if any, especially when the cities lack a connection to the capitol, as the Indian cities do, and is easily dealt with by a single suburban garrison, or even by reinforcements on the way to the front.

 

[MSTK]

Well, my ambitions at extermination are pretty much cooled down by now. I no longer have any desire to completely wipe out India. Only the two or three cities that are in the way of our expansion.

 

[Bede]

Verry nicely handled. Looks like Cathy has painted a target on her chest.

 

[scoutsout]

@MSTK: Nicely done with the war. I think one of your assessments is on-point: Lahore will not likely withstand an assault of 9 swords.

@Bede: "I have an idea."

 

[scoutsout]

Sorry for the double post... I'll let Brother Bede tell you guys in general terms what can happen when I have an idea...

@MSTK: I want to compliment you on 2 things:

1) You've organized a nice little Stack of Doom on the outskirts of Lahore.
2) You've also organized a nice little dogpile on Ghandi. Bede'll tell you, I just love a good dogpile. :devil2:

...in working on my idea, I downloaded the save to look at a couple of things. I made a few more notes than I thought I would, and I picked a few nits with the cities - but don't any of you take any of this as criticism.... just observations.

Here are some assessments:

Resource situation: We've got 3 lux, and one surplus incense; 3 iron, 2 horses (1 unconnected). We don't have spices... I have an idea

Military situation: Barb warning at Kanesh. Strong to all known civs. India is in despotism, Maya in Anarchy. All others in Monarchy. A couple of scouts, 11 Warriors, 10 Swords, and 7 3MCs. Our navy consists of a galley and a curraugh.

There is a nicely organized stack of Doom S-SE of Lahore. I have an idea

Sword in 2 at Riverbend, Sword in 2 at Vineyard. I have an idea

Diplomatic situation: Everybody but Maya are allied against Ghandi. I love a good dogpile.

Expansion situation: Two settlers, good! Making a settler in Hattusas, good. Not slacking off on expansion.

Some city management suggestions:

Fire the clown in Riverbend, Pop out another sword or two, then a spear/settler pair.

Grassy Beach has a Granary, making 6spt. Could make a settler and then a worker...

Oasisland is at 5spt after corruption. Good place to make spears or archers after the sword build.

Greenland and Ivriz need some worker turns...

You guys need a road on the tile west of Hattusas in a big way...

Ugarit needs something besides a granary. Whip a spear or something.

OK Corral has a citizen on an unimproved plains, with improved tiles available..

Building Temple of Artemis in Aleppo... due in 27. Could build Great Lighthouse in 7...

Big suggestion: Everybody go over to the War Academy and read The Lazy Man's War - Let's You and Him Fight. My idea will use elements of this strat.

 

[MSTK]

Lahore will not likely withstand an assault of 9 swords.

Wow! I just realized something. Tehre are 9 white lines underneath the attack force. Are those white lines the number of units on that tile? I've always wondered what it was...

 

[MSTK]

Everybody go over to the War Academy and read The Lazy Man's War - Let's You and Him Fight. My idea will use elements of this strat.

Well, just re-read it. I was going to send a settler to the ruins of Calcutta, but I wanted to get rid of the Barbarians. It's only two turns extra if anyone wants to move it there. Calcutta is an excelent location with three river forks.


EDiT: If you didn't see it, we have horses directly underneath Osgiliath. Was that a bad choice to build it on top?

 

[scoutsout]

Wow! I just realized something. Tehre are 9 white lines underneath the attack force. Are those white lines the number of units on that tile? I've always wondered what it was...

You sir, are now officially ready to join the ranks of the "fog gazers" in the GOTM speculation threads. That is something they look for to tell whether or not the next game will feature an expansionist tribe. Nice observation.

 

[scoutsout]

As I was looking through the last page or so of posts...I came across some interesting thoughts...

Sesn:
Ghandi...needs a whuppin.

Bede:
Warriors and spears are no match against concentrated swords and his largest town is only pop5 (the others are all pop1).

I'm going to come back to that part in bold...

Sir Clive:
...we should avoid despotic GA if we can

...and then there was some discussion with Sir Clive regarding auto-razing...which relates to what Bede mentioned...

Bede:
As you can tell I am partial to the notion of fighting a war of limited engagement.

As I read these thoughts and considered the tactical situation, a couple of things occured to me.

1) If most of Ghandi's cities are Pop 1, then it would stand to reason they're not going to produce enough units to threaten us.
2) We don't want to engage the 3MC's at this stage if we can help it.
3) We want to inflict some serious pain on Ghandi.

Looking at our assets, we have: 1) The previously mentioned, nicely organized stack of swords. 2) Some swords in the queue.

The plan I am going to lay out could gain two big advantages: 1) Break Ghandi's back 2) Get us spices

The plan has 3 major concepts:
1) Take the Sword Stack of Doom, and march straightaway towards Delhi. That's right, march straight towards Delhi. Do not "pass GO", do not sack Lahore, or molest Hyderabad. Advance on Delhi forthwith, posthaste, etc. When Delhi falls, Ghandi's back will be broken. (I acually did this very thing to Mecca in COTM1...)

2) Once Delhi is taken, consolidate new swords from Riverbend and Vineyard at Vineyard, and march them North to the spices...while troops available after taking Delhi advance from the Northwest...("Hammer and Anvil")

3) Use "Let's You and Him Fight" principles to let Russia and Japan sack all of Ghandi's size 1 cities. Drop Settler pairs in any space they manage to clear out.

Here's a scheme of maneuver:

 

[MSTK]

Wow, that's a better plan than I could have thought of. I always think so linear, as if one thing can only happen if this other thing happens, in a straight line...

I think this plan is great. Who is up next?

Although, you skipped over Karachi. The only city that is over size 1...

Not that it really matters. But Karachi or Lahore will be the next Indian Capital. And if it's Karachi, then culture-flipping is more of a problem.

Something else that I've noticed is that when I get AIs to sign an alliance, they rarely go our of their way to conquer another civ. Or am I just unlucky...?

You sir, are now officially ready to join the ranks of the "fog gazers" in the GOTM speculation threads. That is something they look for to tell whether or not the next game will feature an expansionist tribe. Nice observation.

I don't really understand what you mean...

 

[scoutsout]

Not that it really matters. But Karachi or Lahore will be the next Indian Capital. And if it's Karachi, then culture-flipping is more of a problem.

...and if it's Karachi, your swords will be right there to deal with 'em.

Something else that I've noticed is that when I get AIs to sign an alliance, they rarely go our of their way to conquer another civ. Or am I just unlucky...?

The AI do not tend to fight skillfully. One will eliminate another on occasion through sheer inertia. As Bede can attest, that inertia can be daunting at Demi-God level when you factor in the 30% AI discount and have to fight 2-3 AI at once...

I don't really understand what you mean...

Before every GOTM, there is a speculation thread that starts about a week or so in advance. Ainwood will post a screenshot showing a settler at a start postion, and give little hints about the upcoming game. A ridiculous number of posts are written on opening moves, guesses on the civ that we'll be playing, etc. "Fog gazing" refers to guessing what's in those tiles that can't quite be seen... but looking for 3 white bars versus 2 is something that is quickly noted in the speculation thread.

 

[MSTK]

...and if it's Karachi, your swords will be right there to deal with 'em.

So, we go out of our way to destroy Karachi or do we proceed with the Rondezvous with the Vineyard Troops?

 

[scoutsout]

So, we go out of our way to destroy Karachi or do we proceed with the Rondezvous with the Vineyard Troops?

My guess is that Cleopatra will give Karachi something to deal with... but if the situation changes, having troops in a recently conquered Delhi will let you adjust...

I'm going to shut up now, and let your actual teammates get a word in edgewise.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Go with operation Delhi Swamp per scout. Take a look south of Delhi at the highway; we should connect it to Kummani with those workers we're running out of things to do with. By the time we get there the Indians should be out of the way. We can also send settlers to fill in the plains on the way to Ugarit. By completing the highway, we can quickly run the troops from Madras (after we get the luxury) down to the vicinity of Lahore. If Lahore is gone, cool. If not, take it. This sets us up for Cathy's bullseye at Rostov. Note the furs. Bring in the Japanese to help with the Russians when we massed enough might.

I'll continue to drop in when I can get the children away from the surf.

I'm off to the War Academy for the required reading.

 

[Bede]

Just a gentle recap

mtgfreak - UP
Sir Clive - on deck
Bede - looking forward curry in Delhi
viper275
MSTK-got the war dances started
Admiral Kutzov- Vacation until 3 Aug (since 8/3/04 will just confuse us English folks )

 

[mtgfreak]

i got it, will play soon

 

[Sir Clive]

Wow looks like some pretty interesting stuff happened whilst I was tucked up in bed last night !

Looks like a very nice set of turns MSTK.

Scoutsouts idea of leaving the small towns , taking Delhi and then Madras looks like a masterpiece. It's something I would have never have even got within 100 miles of but it makes perfect sense.

I've only just got home from work so I have just read through all the posts from last night and haven't grabbed the save game yet to look at it it more detail but we seem to be in very good shape.

The info about the white lines under the health bar was fascinating - that is very useful information which I never knew before.

Have we given any more thought to forbidden palace location ? Since I haven't looked at the save yet I don't know how close we are but I guess we can't be far away.

One other thing I didn't understand was from MSTK

Pay Egyptians 275 & RoP to help in war. We save 25 Gold by adding RoP.
Pay Russia 137 & RoP to help in war. We save 57 Gold by adding RoP.
Pay Japan 248 & RoP for Miltary Alliance, just in case India gets to them first. We save 33 Gold by adding RoP.

Sorry to sound but I don't understand how we save gold by getting RoP (This is one of the reasons why I'm struggling at Monarch )
Can someone explain please ?

 

[MSTK]

Well, if I had not added RoP, it would have been more expensive.

I think there is an article on the War Academy about this (one of the first 10 on the site list). If your territory is bigger than the others', then they pay for your RoP. If theirs is bigger, then you pay.

Since our territory is bigger, they will pay for our RoP. I could have made it a seperate deal, by paying full price for the MA and then trading the RoP later to get a "rebate", but I just did it at the same time.

 

[mtgfreak]

Turn Log

Preturn Checks: OK corral switched to swordsman

IBT: Japan moves troops, I am wondering if they are going to declare war on us

Turn 1: Tarsus worker->worker, moving workers, fortifiy a 1hp sword, riverbend is producing 12spt, and can get to the 15spt mark at size 10 or 11 depending on corruption, get monarchy from arabs for construction and 380g, put stack o' death on go to orders to get to delhi in 7

Turn 2: Riverbend Sword->Sword, Vineyard sword->sword, switch grassy beach off catapult and onto sword

IBT: Japan moves troops towards india, india moves two warriors towards Ugarit

Turn 3: Oasisland sword ->sword, greenland spear->barracks, found Yalburt on coast dispersing barbs, starts on barracks

IBT: Egypt signs peace with india, archer attacks stack o death and dies

Turn 4: Hattusas Settler-> Settler, Tarsus Worker->Worker, Grassy Beach Sword-> Sword

IBT: WTH!! India attacks Ugarit with 2 warriors and somehow kills both garrisons without a mark, barb attacks and dies, India rushes spear in Ugarit

Turn 5: Riverbend Sword->Sword, OK Corral Sword->Sword, Ankuwa Sword->Sword, Karhyuk Barracks-> Sword, Up sci to 50 to get lit in 1

IBT: Indian archer attacks and dies to stack o death

Turn 6: Im gonna stop here because we learn literature, Kanesh spear->sword

My questions are: do we want the GL, do we want to switch Allepo to GL, and finally, do we want to switch into monarchy

will post screenie later