Shaolin
Chieftain
What are your thoughts on the news that a biotech company has cloned a human embryo. Do you think it's valid, hype, or human cloning is still a long ways off.
Cloning
- Thread starter Shaolin
- Start date
Depends on what you mean by human cloning.
They have done the definition of cloning already! But if your talking about walking into a cloning booth and two people walking out....it's a long way off. Also if your talking about cloing an adult, and eveything being identical and ready in a week, where a long way off. And if you talking about cloning a person (at any phase) and having them ready in a week (accellerated aging) we are a long way off.
They have done the definition of cloning already! But if your talking about walking into a cloning booth and two people walking out....it's a long way off. Also if your talking about cloing an adult, and eveything being identical and ready in a week, where a long way off. And if you talking about cloning a person (at any phase) and having them ready in a week (accellerated aging) we are a long way off.
I think human cloning is really still some decades into the future. Or at least the perfection of. As for the rights and wrongs of, I dunno. This is a complicated issue and I think beyond my capacity but I think all the money poured into cloning research could have been better used to aid modern disease research or finance public health programs in the Third World.
I have mixed feelings on the topic of human cloning. Right now all that is being done is embryos are being created in hopes of eventually using their cells to help people with diseases. Some people say this is creating embryos to kill them and harvest their cells. Now I am not very well informed on this subject, and my question is whether this is really "killing" the embryos. Were they ever really alive? I don't know. There has to be some point at which a person goes from a collection of cells to a living human, but I don't know where that point is. It can't be at the point that a sperm cell enters the egg cell, because somewhere down the line this has to be able to divide into two separate groups of cells as happens with twins, and twins are obviously two separate people, not two extensions of the same person. Its a confusing subject with many moral issues at hand, and I think people should look at it more before either condoning or condemning it.
PinkyGen
Paper copying intern
I think cloning in order to get stem cells is ok. This is because I think stem cell research is ok, and I don't view it as human life.
However, as for cloning people and actually giving birth, I don't think that is a good idea.
However, as for cloning people and actually giving birth, I don't think that is a good idea.
Eternal
Chieftain
We have to ask ourselves, are we going to let our children grow up in a world where there are no cloned supersoldiers to fight our wars and possibly keep our society udner the thumb of a iron-willed dictator?
I think that it is being rushed into - I would suggest the people doing it just want to be the first, and haven't bothered themselves with any wider aspects involved. I don't mind the stem cell research, as it's the holy grail of medicine and looks set to revolutionise science.
I don't have moral qualms about it, either. I think it should be done, but some people are jumping headlong when they should look before they leap. I honestly believe these people are caught up in a giddy rush. I don't believe it should be done by private companies either, as they are motivated 99 times out of a 100 by greed.
I don't have moral qualms about it, either. I think it should be done, but some people are jumping headlong when they should look before they leap. I honestly believe these people are caught up in a giddy rush. I don't believe it should be done by private companies either, as they are motivated 99 times out of a 100 by greed.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
As stated, this form of cloning is only being used to disguise the fact that the clone is being butchered for its cells. Exact same situation as if they had grown it to maturity, in a sensory deprivation chamber, and then harvested the organs to implant in the parent as transplants. Murder sanctioned by science. The only difference is the age of the murder victim.
ApocalypseKurtz
Man, myth, legend
I for one am glad we have finally reached this great moment in technology. By using cloning technology we will learn more about the human body then we ever have. We will be able to cure life-threatening diseases, viruses, and paralysis. The Pope opposes this type of research because he claims we are "playing God" and "God would not allow this." Well, he is allowing us to have the technology to do it. Why would he give us the technology to do it yet outlaw us from using that technology? I think the Church fears science because science will give people solutions to problems that they currently go to the church for.
ApocalypseKurtz
Man, myth, legend
polymath - I agree that private companiies are near-always motivated by greed, but in the U.S., things are pretty much all private. Bush signed legislation for "limited" public funding which will probably turn out to be very little. So our best hope in the U.S. is the private sector.
I have to agree that this a complicated subject. Personally I think the life begins at conception and that human embryos should not be used to obtain stem cells. (even if they are used to save someone else). But the technique used here is slightly different. They took an unfertilized egg and replaced it's genetic code with that of an other cell. Technically this is the same as a "normal" embryo but ??? I generally end up thinking that this is no different that any other test that were performed in the past directly on humans. It might be easier if we knew what we can do with this "technology".
Leowind
Emperor
The "cloning" that was just recently announced amounted to some cloned eggs splitting into cells for a few hours and then dying. They didn't even get far enough to harvest stem cells from had they wanted to. We are still very much in the first baby steps, if even that far, concerning cloning in general, and cloning of people especially. However, I suspect it is somewhat inevitable that a cloned human embryo will eventually be sustained to the point of harvesting stem cells. We still have some time before this happens--hopefully years not months-- to figure out how we all feel about the next logical step, whether that becomes "growing" babies to harvest organs, or giving birth to genetically-engineered babies. As repulsive as both of these ideas sound to our early 21st century minds, I would lay odds on one or the other, or both, happening in the future. It may be another generation or two as people get used to the idea before it happens, but as someone pointed out, there's always some scientist (most, actually) in a rush to be the "first" to do something and grab some media attention who will go ahead with it. If it is technically feasible, somebody somewhere will do it no matter how ethically deplorable the rest of us may or may not find it.
For the record, I agree we need to really slow down and let the ethical discussions catch up with the science before we get too far ahead of ourselves, but I'm not ready to categorically call it wrong, either. Much honest and difficult discussion needs to happen. It probably won't, but it needs to.
For the record, I agree we need to really slow down and let the ethical discussions catch up with the science before we get too far ahead of ourselves, but I'm not ready to categorically call it wrong, either. Much honest and difficult discussion needs to happen. It probably won't, but it needs to.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
And how many humans will be dissassembled at the molecular level to get the parts for those who get to live?
Your point about god giving us technology, however, is unassailable. I shall go out and buy some rohypnol and start date-raping immediately. On my way to get it, I'll buy a gun, and shoot anyone who annoys me, and be sure to use a blender to teach little punks not to touch my car, which I will drive through the park and use to run down little old ladies, because, hey, God gave us the technology, right?
Or could it be, that we have a responsibility (there's that dirty nasty evil word that FL keeps using, I wish he would just get cancer and DIE!) to use our knowledge RESPONSIBLY? Humanely? Fairly?
The end does NOT justify the means. I double-dog dare you to deny that.
To be honest I have no doubts that one day (sooner then we think) we will be able produce humans. IS it good or bad? There are for and against, so discussion will never be solved.
Ethics . hm I believe it is what majority population believes in at a point of time in particular society. I can give you arguments for and against cloning that I believe are ethical just depends where you stand. To me, as long as we love those freaks and they love us there is no problem. If 100000 people wants their son to look like Michael Jackson that is fine with me it is theirs business. I do not have to follow.
By the way Pope is a good man and he defends Churchs position, as that is what he believes in. Just because some people have no believes does not make others old fashioned, limited, etc. I do not understand people that try to divide science and religion. Both are in a perfect harmony. Where one has question other has got answer. It is us who force differences between them.
Ethics . hm I believe it is what majority population believes in at a point of time in particular society. I can give you arguments for and against cloning that I believe are ethical just depends where you stand. To me, as long as we love those freaks and they love us there is no problem. If 100000 people wants their son to look like Michael Jackson that is fine with me it is theirs business. I do not have to follow.
By the way Pope is a good man and he defends Churchs position, as that is what he believes in. Just because some people have no believes does not make others old fashioned, limited, etc. I do not understand people that try to divide science and religion. Both are in a perfect harmony. Where one has question other has got answer. It is us who force differences between them.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
There are a few problems with human cloning I'm concerned about:
First, overpopulation of the industrial world. Unlikely, but be careful.
Second, facist states. With cloning and bioengineering of babies, you could create a "super race" of sorts, and that could lead to very devastating results.
Third, children being bought and sold in the free market. Children are children, not objects.
First, overpopulation of the industrial world. Unlikely, but be careful.
Second, facist states. With cloning and bioengineering of babies, you could create a "super race" of sorts, and that could lead to very devastating results.
Third, children being bought and sold in the free market. Children are children, not objects.
Shaolin
Chieftain
This is a very tricky subject. For one, I agree with the post that said we are rushing to fast into this and that companies are just trying to be the first. Using a line from Jurassic Park, "you were trying so hard to see if you could, you didn't stop to think if you should." The thought of just having a back-up body that you can have cut up if you need a kidney doesn't sit well with me. On the issue on when life begins, no one will ever agree on that. Personally, I believe we've created a society in which we are so anxious to run to the doctor as soon as we get a little cough or a sniffle. With all these innoculations, we are setting ourselves up for a massive sickness sweeping through our society. We need to develop immunities to minor things so we can focus on diseases like Cancer or AIDS. If we focus on major problems we won't need clones.
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
There is an alternative source of stem cells other than embryos.
The embylical cord, the one we throw in the trash after birth, contains these cells in the blood that fills it. They can easily extract the stem cells from that blood right after birth, before snipping and tossing the cord away. Its been done hundreds of times already.
I just learned that tonight.
I am still in favor of "harvesting" these cells if they can cure disease. I have no problem with making cells in a dish.
Trying to create a whole person is another thing. Imagine how many warped and twisted mutations would occur before it could be perfected. What do you do with them? Kill them? Theyre only clones, after all...
I dont think thats going to happen anyway. I do think they will start working on human engineering in the womb in earnest. If you are wealthy enough, you could have a designer baby.
And super-soldiers, enhanced laborers and all that other stuff. And why not? 10 or 15 years from now it will be commonplace. Stem cell soft drinks. Designer limbs (I always wanted a third arm). Cloned pets (scruffy III was missed until we got scruffy IV).
Ooh, I cant wait for the future.
The embylical cord, the one we throw in the trash after birth, contains these cells in the blood that fills it. They can easily extract the stem cells from that blood right after birth, before snipping and tossing the cord away. Its been done hundreds of times already.
I just learned that tonight.
I am still in favor of "harvesting" these cells if they can cure disease. I have no problem with making cells in a dish.
Trying to create a whole person is another thing. Imagine how many warped and twisted mutations would occur before it could be perfected. What do you do with them? Kill them? Theyre only clones, after all...
I dont think thats going to happen anyway. I do think they will start working on human engineering in the womb in earnest. If you are wealthy enough, you could have a designer baby.
And super-soldiers, enhanced laborers and all that other stuff. And why not? 10 or 15 years from now it will be commonplace. Stem cell soft drinks. Designer limbs (I always wanted a third arm). Cloned pets (scruffy III was missed until we got scruffy IV).
Ooh, I cant wait for the future.
ApocalypseKurtz
Man, myth, legend
What you are missing is that by using stem-cell research, we are not HARMING anyone. We are only helping people. Your examples are date-raping, shooting people, and driving over people. Obviously these things HARM other people. So they are illegal. Cloning, however, is NOT harming anyone and therefore is not wrong in my opinion. (Obviously you will disagree with me here)
BTW I don't want you to get cancer and die; you have provided the primary voice of opposition to me on many topics
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
The little baby that got dissected as an embreyo might disagree with you too. I am flat against using stem cells from embreyos, fetuses, and the like. Umbilical stem cells and adult stem cells I could care less. They either not going to be a living person, or not going to kill the source by their removal. My disapproval is with the source, not the use, of the stem cells.
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