Coastal city buffs

[Ziad]

Ed Beach posted this on Twitter:

Had to make the more sweeping changes first before we could address coastal cities. We're looking into what we can do for them right now.

I've been a defender of coastal cities/civs on these forums but even I realized that the latest production changes would disproportionately affect land cities... leaving coastal cities in a relatively worse position.

What changes would you suggest to make coastal cities better in the wake of the June patch?

I've compiled a list of suggestions I think would be appropriate. Vote on what you think is best (up to 5 choices are allowed). You can also pick Other and tell us what you think should be one.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Coastal cities ought to be centers of trade. Right now, a Commercial Hub is a better trade hub than a Harbor. I can imagine new Policy Cards that ramp up trade routes that originate and/or end in Harbors. If trade to Harbors were better, in addition to trade from Harbors, they would provide a kind of diplomatic value, where the AI would see a higher value in sending Trade Routes to seafaring nations than to landlubbers. Thus, the most lucrative trade routes would be from a Harbor to a Harbor.

Because there's so much Gold in the game already, merely raising the net Gold from maritime Trade Routes might be overkill. Rebalancing the Gold value of everything in the game might also be too much. What if Trade Routes from Harbors provided something else? What if maritime Trade Routes to other Civs gave you bonus Culture or Science? What if Harbors generated Great People points from maritime Trade Routes, based on the Districts at the destination city? That is, if you send a Trade Route from a Harbor to a foreign city that has a Campus, you get +0.25 Great Scientist Points. I'm just thinking out loud.

Coastal cities should also be a nation's gateways, at least until airports are built (and provided your nation welcomes new people). Some way of promoting growth for coastal cities could reflect populations moving around. Currently, immigrants & refugees just aren't a part of the game and it's probably unrealistic to introduce a whole new mechanic at this point, but perhaps Harbors could provide a Growth boost to all of your cities, kind of like what Magnus does if you give him the promotion. Again, a Policy Card or two could manage this quite neatly.

So I went with "additional policy choices."

 

[Ziad]

Currently, immigrants & refugees just aren't a part of the game and it's probably unrealistic to introduce a whole new mechanic at this point

Sounds like good material for a colonial/corporation/immigration expansion to me.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I want them changed, but I don't mind challenging housing being an ongoing theme for them (as long as the payoff is worth it).

 

[EgonSpengler]

Sounds like good material for a colonial/corporation/immigration expansion to me.

Yeah, if they decided to do a whole new expansion, sure. For now, I'm just thinking about what could be implemented in the current game, but certainly, a full-blast expansion could do much more.

Existing Policy Cards - current effects - proposed addition in italics (again, just riffing, I haven't put a ton of thought into any of these ideas):
Merchant Confederation - +1 Gold for each Envoy - +0.25 Diplomatic Point per Maritime Trade Route per Turn
Traveling Merchants - +2 Great Merchant Points per turn - Harbors generate +1 Culture
Colonial Offices - +15% growth, +3 Loyalty to cities on foreign continents - +5% additional growth in cities with a Harbor
Triangular Trade - +4 Gold, +1 Faith from Trade Routes - Harbors provide +20% Production of Builders & Settlers

 

[Nerevatar]

In my opinion it would be a poor fix to just give more production / housing to coastal cities, since they would just be 'reskinned' inland cities at that point. Making them centers of trade would be more thematic and differentiate them from inland cities. The change should also make sure that the ''correct'' playstyle is not to only have 1 coastal city.

Maybe do something with governers since they are a limited ressource, could use more use cases, have tall vs wide mechanics built in and are a good thematic fit.
Harbor district could get this : for every promotion of the governor of the city, trade routes get 1 culture for CS, 1 science for international and 2-3 production for domestic. (Numbers might need tweaking)

 

[Ziad]

In my opinion it would be a poor fix to just give more production / housing to coastal cities, since they would just be 'reskinned' inland cities at that point. Making them centers of trade would be more thematic and differentiate them from inland cities. The change should also make sure that the ''correct'' playstyle is not to only have 1 coastal city.

Maybe do something with governers since they are a limited ressource, could use more use cases, have tall vs wide mechanics built in and are a good thematic fit.
Harbor district could get this : for every promotion of the governor of the city, trade routes get 1 culture for CS, 1 science for international and 2-3 production for domestic. (Numbers might need tweaking)

Well ultimately the idea is to establish some sort of parity and that can be accomplished either through homogenization or differentiation.

If they were to make coastal cities more about gold than production (as you imply) then one should also be able to repair districts/buildings with gold or outright purchase districts as baseline without the need for a governor.

 

[Nerevatar]

If they were to make coastal cities more about gold than production (as you imply) then one should also be able to repair districts/buildings with gold or outright purchase districts as baseline without the need for a governor.

I wouldnt say that my idea is strictly about gold, more about getting yields in general through trade. It would make coastal cities very flexible in regards to what yield types is needed when, and accomplish it through trade.

Using my suggestion, you would assign a high(er) ranking governor to the coastal city in need of repair, and change the trade routes from the city to domestic.

 

[m_mus]

I don't see it appearing in your list, but as our dear @Victoria has stated many times, it is huge problem that (to my knowledge) maritime natural disasters only have destructive power. Contrary to inland cities suffering floods, sand storms, volcanic eruptions or blizzards, whose affected tiles are increased yield-wise afterwards, hurricanes blow all those fisheries away without a "reward" compensating the necessary repairs.
I'd like to see some benefits of hurricanes, thus in order to mirror the ambivalence land-borne disasters have.
As is, they are only negative.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

If you spend your pantheon on God of the Seas, invest your envoys into controlling Auckland with an iron grip, avoid any Hurricanes, and beeline an out-of-the-way leaf node, then coastal cities are just fine and just as good as a "normal" city.

But that's multiple prices to pay, with many points something can go wrong, for mere normality.

Meanwhile your inland neighbor is enjoying his Religious Settlement bonus city next to a sweet volcano with other city state bonuses and more efficient techs.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

If you spend your pantheon on God of the Seas, invest your envoys into controlling Auckland with an iron grip, avoid any Hurricanes, and beeline an out-of-the-way leaf node, then coastal cities are just fine and just as good as a "normal" city.

But that's multiple prices to pay, with many points something can go wrong, for mere normality.

Meanwhile your inland neighbor is enjoying his Religious Settlement bonus city next to a sweet volcano with other city state bonuses and more efficient techs.

Well that's over-stated too though. Volcanoes can be close to shore . . .

 

[Ziad]

I don't see it appearing in your list, but as our dear @Victoria has stated many times, it is huge problem that (to my knowledge) maritime natural disasters only have destructive power. Contrary to inland cities suffering floods, sand storms, volcanic eruptions or blizzards, whose affected tiles are increased yield-wise afterwards, hurricanes blow all those fisheries away without a "reward" compensating the necessary repairs.
I'd like to see some benefits of hurricanes, thus in order to mirror the ambivalence land-borne disasters have.
As is, they are only negative.

I mentioned repairs in this thread but it's not a poll option. I'll add it in because it's rather important (although a few votes have been cast already).

 

[Nerevatar]

I don't see it appearing in your list, but as our dear @Victoria has stated many times, it is huge problem that (to my knowledge) maritime natural disasters only have destructive power. Contrary to inland cities suffering floods, sand storms, volcanic eruptions or blizzards, whose affected tiles are increased yield-wise afterwards, hurricanes blow all those fisheries away without a "reward" compensating the necessary repairs.
I'd like to see some benefits of hurricanes, thus in order to mirror the ambivalence land-borne disasters have.
As is, they are only negative.

Hurricanes add yields as well. My first maori game had some insane flat grassland tiles in my coastal capital it was build right in the hurricane valley formed by the prevailing winds (I didnt understand what this was, so I got only myself to blame ) and was destroyed multiple times.

Knowing prevailing winds makes it alot easier to avoid hurricanes.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Maybe harbors can mitigate some of the damage against you. I have to believe that the fishermen would be smart enough to head for "safe harbors" if they see a typhoon coming.

 

[m_mus]

Hurricanes add yields as well. My first maori game had some insane flat grassland tiles in my coastal capital it was build right in the hurricane valley formed by the prevailing winds (I didnt understand what this was, so I got only myself to blame ) and was destroyed multiple times.

Knowing prevailing winds makes it alot easier to avoid hurricanes.

Then let me correct my suggestion: Hurricanes should also benefit maritime tiles.

 

[kaspergm]

I've modded water tiles to give one more food than default, and given Industrial Zones a +2 adjacency bonus to Harbors. I can say these changes make coastal cities much more even with inland cities.

I still would like to see something interesting being made of trade routes to favor coastal trade. Someone made a suggestion that domestic trade routes can only go over water - either coast or rivers - until railroad technology, which is a quite radical but interesting suggestion. That would definitely make coastal cities play a much more important role. But a more simple yield bonus á la Civ5 would probably also do the trick.

I think Celestial Navigation is not only awkward as a leaf tech, I also think it comes an era too late. I think it should be side by side with Masonry and Bronze Working. If you have a pure coastal start and want to beeline Celestial Navigation, it takes you A LONG time to get there, which is a pretty heave setback.

 

[criZp]

The only buff that can't easily be modded is to use the trade route efficiency thing on internal routes also.

 

[The googles do nothing]

The minimum: Costal Cities can only be put to siege by Ships

What they should do: Harbors, Harbor buildings, Fishing boats and Fishery increase city healing by 5 points each.
Trade Routes to Costal Cities grant +4 loyalty to the receiving city. "Loyalty" admirals grant food as well.

Reasoning:
Costal cities should be different then landlocked cities. Landlocked cities will still be the best at production, which means they will be better at the other yields. Costal cities will be much tougher to take down. Naval combat will become necessary because you will have to pillage it's water bourn resources of a costal city to take it. This security will mean you can spend more of your limited production on things other then the military. It will encourage creating colonial cites because they will less venerable to capture by force or loyalty.

 

[Heinage]

I went for Coastal cities receive a bonus to trade routes.

Reason:
There should be differentiation between coastal cities and inland cities.
Merely giving coastal cities more production or food buffs doesn't differentiate them. The net effect would be balancing them so they are the same, rendering city placement choices moot.
I reckon the point of difference should be in trade, with coastal cities being better centres of trade.

 

[King of Prussia]

Some good ideas in here. Another way to make coastal cities better would be to allow some districts to be either land or sea, rather than being confined to one or the other. One of my biggest issues with coastal cities is lack of space to plant districts. It gets even worse when you add wonders into the mix. Having hybrid districts with pros and cons to being on land or sea would add more variety, free up space, and offer new strategies. Add in disasters and they become pretty unappealing. As someone else said, land tiles get better with disasters. While hurricanes can do this too, they tend to destroy everything on land and sea. They don't buff sea tiles. Unlike rivers, there is very little agency to deal with them. IDK if even flood barriers help, though they come to late to mitigate most of the storms.

Colonization isn't that practical either because of loyalty. With the way the game handles some stuff with regards to continents, idk how you would make say colonizing NA as England better via bonuses than say settling in africa as spain.


on a side note, all those late game sea improvements come too late to ever matter. I only get them after i am almost done with the victory condition. They provide great yields, but by then it is too late. It is a shame, because coastal cities become very strong with them.