College Tuition: How much do you pay?

[Maj]

Non-north americans, let me apologize on all the civfanatic Canadians who, like too many in this country, live under the delusion that the rest of the world lives in a student fantasyland where everything is free.

I haven't taken a survey but I'm under the impression that most students, at least at the university I attend, know that PSE is far less expensive in Europe in terms of tuition. As for the cost of living, well, I'm pretty sure everyone is in tune enough will reality to know that some things in life don't come for free, to say the least.

Yep, most other countries don't ask for tuition. But there's a price: most other countries limit entry into universities far more stringently. Canada and the US have the highest PSE participation and completion rates per capita on the planet, so the terrifying $$$ does buy something in return.

What are the most significant limiting factors?

- Maj

 

[GenghisK]

SixChan said:
If I remember correctly, student tuition fees in Scotland are:
£0

Remove the £ then you'll get my last mark at the mathematics exam last year
Add a 6 and a 0 in front of the 0 then you get my refunded inland revenue from the British government

Seriously, I thought that in UK studies are damn expensive too. That's why 1 student out of 3 gets depressed because they have too much debt when they graduate, even from Cambridge or Oxford.

 

[Richard III]

Replying to Maj: the limiting factors are (a) fewer spaces and (b) higher entry standards, often set early (if you don't do well in the equal of Ontario's grade 11 or 12, you get streamed away from university long before you get there).

As I understand it, another difference between the U of O and Carleton is that Carleton has very lax entry standards for basic liberal arts (at least, it did 10 years ago when I was a sign-waving student activist). You wouldn't see standards that low nearly as often in "free systems." Which is a crock, really, because I'd rather someone pay but get better opportunities for doing so, since high school performance really doesn't seem to relate to university performance at all; commitment to your major seems to have much more impact from my experience.

But a salute to you for speaking about the cost-of-living stuff; without getting to parochial for our foreign civfanatic colleagues, I have always said that another great Canadian mistake is for student lobbyists to assume that tuition is the greatest financial deterrent to PSE, which it clearly isn't: foregone income needed to pay cost of living is.

R.III

 

[H Tower]

how much higher are taxes in europe then if schooling is free?

 

[Maj]

how much higher are taxes in europe then if schooling is free?

I'm not exactly sure how the taxation system works in Europe and how the funds are redistributed, but I can say that in general, taxes are far higher in West European nations than they are in the United States, or Canada for that matter. State healthcare and education are better funded and the television stations (at least in France, Germany & Austria) are under some sort of deal that they do not require as much advertising to survive hence far fewer advertisments. The governments follow a more socialist system which in my opinion is more egalitarian in terms of having access to the basic institutions of health and welfare.

I've been to the United States and I have been to many European nations and based solely on what I have experienced in both areas, the Europeans are far less competitive and individualistic than the Americans, which their taxation system (and the complaints against it) reflect. I'm not saying these are bad qualities, but from the societal tastes I prefer, European society is for more pleasant and enjoyable. Getting a bit too far off topic but I just wanted to that off my chest.

the limiting factors are (a) fewer spaces and (b) higher entry standards, often set early (if you don't do well in the equal of Ontario's grade 11 or 12, you get streamed away from university long before you get there).

Although I believe in equal treatment and opportunity, I can see how limiting the number of free tuitions the government doles out would act as an incentive for students to place more effort into their studies so that they earn their position rather than purchase it. The entry marks for the liberal marks at the Ottawa universities are remarkably low yet they do give those who faired poorly in high school the opportunity to redeem themselves, academically and emotionally.

I had registered at Ottawa U. and other universities with the hopes of entering a B.Sc but was quickly turned down by every single one for my poor marks in mathematics. I used to excel at the subject but familial and social problems really took a chunk away from my life and the desire to succeed (in the way I define it). I slipped in math simply because I hardly even put an effort into my studies and paid the price for my apathy and shameless self-pity.

Luckily, Carleton and its very low admittance mark requirements for the liberal arts allowed me to get a second chance. Somehow though, I really wish I had made it into the raw sciences. The social sciences are littered with so many opposing ideologies that it is really difficult to say anything meaningful without ignoring other contradictory, although valid, viewpoints.

I don't know where I'd be were I a student in W. Europe. I suppose $20 000 or so in debt

 

[catullus]

Originally posted by dhmurray
You get what you pay for.
[/B]

Indeed we all do. But I pay my university bill now, through the tax systems. My entry to the universiyu was not related to my parents' wealth, or the financial institutions' willingness to give me a loan. Using tax as the method of payment ensures that anyone with the brains can get a degree, and (almost) no amount of money will buy you credentials.
Note that this does not ensure that the European method in any way gives a better (or worse) education, of course.
AFAIK, most countries have "free" low-level education. (K-12?) It's no more magic having "free" universities.

Originally posted by H Tower
how much higher are taxes in europe then if schooling is free?

I don't know how much the school part adds to tax. But we pay MUCH. True.

Originally posted by Richard III
But there's a price: most other countries limit entry into universities far more stringently. Canada and the US have the highest PSE participation and completion rates per capita on the planet, so the terrifying $$$ does buy something in return.
[/B]

According to http://www.un.org/Depts/unsd/social/education.htm it's the people of the land of Oz who wins the education length contest, with an average of 17.1 years of formal schooling. Then Canada and Belgium with 16.8 years, UK at 16.6, then Kiwiland with 16.2, Finland with 16 years, then US and Netherlands with 15.9. Those numbers don't necessarily tell anything about quality of service.

C.

 

[damunzy]

Listening to some of your bills I don't feel as bad about my wife's 28K in outstanding college debt. Unfortunately we will be paying 300 bucks a month for the rest of our lives I have earned about 30K in college money from being in the Army which I will put to good use once I get a job and get settled in a house. Don't need "degrees" as much in the computer industry. Job experience, demonstrateable knowledge, and certifications can get you pretty far up the pay scale (seen some jobs offering 110K+ USD and just looking for those qualities I listed). Once I am in college I will get a whole bunch of college credits for my time in service (possibly a full years worth) for the training I have recieved in the Army (6 months straight of training on computers to speak of some of it).

 

[Case]

This is a bit OT, but it's interesting:
In New Zealand, uni students have to pay their tuition costs via taking out loans at the going interest rate. As a result, Kiwi students finish uni with something like $50,000 to $100,000 of debt and sizable annual interest payments.
Because of the dodgy Kiwi economy lots of graduates then move to Australia where finding high paying jobs is easier. The end result is that New Zealand is losing the very people who are essential for its future survival

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by Case
Because of the dodgy Kiwi economy lots of graduates then move to Australia where finding high paying jobs is easier. The end result is that New Zealand is losing the very people who are essential for its future survival

And I thought the Kiwi's came over here because the were better looking.

On a more serious note Australia's public University system is being privatised by stealth. The federal government is decreasing funding (in real terms) and making it more profitable for universities to attract fee paying (up front) students and forcing them to seek research dollars from private industry.

This has two major consequences, it puts the squeeze on the number of places available to students from low income families and forces Universities to taylor their research in a more commercially orientated direction at the expense of important fundamental research that has less tangible or immediate commercial benefits.

 

[Case]

I reading in todays SMH that the Federal education minister wants full fee paying students to be able to pay their way into courses where their UAI was up to 20 short of the HECs cut-off!