Colonialism, Exploitation and Independence

[Snowygerry]

It is notable in this context that Rwanda itself has “suspended” all development aid from Belgium, they found us “not neutral” imagine that,
we’re off the hook so to say

Rwanda suspends development aid agreement with Belgium, Belgian Foreign Ministers says that it was “under review anyway” | VRT NWS: news

Rwanda has decided to suspend its development aid arrangement with Belgium. The Rwandan Government says that Belgium is not neutral in the conflict in eastern Congo and is conducting an aggressive campaign to hinder its access to development aid. Meanwhile, the Belgian Foreign Minister Maxime...

www.vrt.be

The Rwandan government accuses Belgium of not being neutral with regard to the conflict in the east of the Democratic Republic of Congo. According to Kigali, Belgium is conducting “an aggressive campaign” aimed at blocking access for Rwanda to development aid, including aid from multilateral organisations.

From the Belgian FM came this reaction :

“Belgium’s only guiding principle will remain the respect for human rights, the rule of law, and international humanitarian law,”

Belgium reacts to Rwanda’s disproportionate decision to cut diplomatic ties and declare Belgian diplomats persona non grata in Kigali

Today, Belgium was informed of Rwanda’s decision to sever diplomatic relations with Belgium and to declare Belgian diplomats in Kigali persona non grata.

diplomatie.belgium.be

Rwanda’s decision has not gone unanswered. Minister Maxime Prévot has decided to implement reciprocal measures: summoning Rwanda’s acting chargé d’affaires, declaring Rwandan diplomats persona non grata with an order to leave Belgian territory within 48 hours, and terminating our bilateral governmental cooperation agreements

That settles it then I guess.

 

[EnglishEdward]

.. don't buy your theory that institutional change is the work of charismatic leaders....

I tend to agree with Birdjaguar on this one, I rather think that Lenin, Mao, Gorbachev, Putin and Hitler very much changed institutions.

But I agree that technological changes had a separate impact unrelated to leadership.

 

[Ordnael]

It's very easy to play the victim card and blame colonisers that have left colonies over half a century ago then to take charge.
Heck Brazilian migrants are still very fond to this day to ask "Where's the gold?" in derogatory manner pointing fingers and blaming poor Portugal for their woes but the fact is that Portuguese rule was evicted over two centuries ago. The answer is "the gold is with your, very Brazilian, ancestors by this point" who kept stealing it from the people.
Historical set TV soap operas from Brazil still depict romantic sob stories of Brazilian lords and their slave intensive farms whilst Portugal abolished slavery in 1869.

 

[danjuno]

At what point do people "in their former colonies" become responsible for the problems?
Turning to my favorite area of modern politics, the Great Lakes Region of Africa, at what point does, say, Paul Kagame and the RPF become responsible for the ongoing atrocities in the Kivus? Belgium certainly didn't make Kagame order the murder of Seth Sendashonga or order the kidnapping of Paul Rusesabagina.
Keeping the focus on Rwanda, Belgium certainly practiced divide and rule by creating Hutu and Tutsi*, but in 1994 the 'Hutu Power' clique and akazu of Agathe Habyarimana chose to intentionally plot the murder and extermination of an entire ethnic group to keep their position of power (and murder your political opponents because they dared to challenge your grip on power).

*Yes I know it was more complex than that.

*taps sign*

The problems caused by the British didn't magically disappear with them. Something on that scale might takes centuries to be corrected.

 

[Yeekim]

In African context, I think the main legacy problem of colonization is that newly independent colonies rarely followed any ethnic or linguistic lines. Often, people sharing little but enmity and distrust against each other suddenly had to jointly govern a country - hardly a promising starting point.

Then again, while colonizers often exploited these divisions, they did not create them.

 

[amadeus]

I think the main legacy problem of colonization is that newly independent colonies rarely followed any ethnic or linguistic lines.

I thought diversity was one of our strengths.

 

[Yeekim]

I thought diversity was one of our strengths.

I think there are limits to that in practice.

 

[danjuno]

I'd say it's one of the many different factors to consider when forming a new government. If you have the means to gather and manage a coalition, then such challenges can be overcome. The problem is, as I mentioned before, lack of natives with high-level administrative experience due to the colonizers generally only allowing natives to climb so far in the previous administration (and such experience in a colonial administration is not guaranteed to be useful to various aspects of independent government).

 

[Birdjaguar]

How frequently have newly independent nations been taken over by their military? How soon after independence have the military coups taken hold? Are the goals of military leadership the same as those of more democratic leadership or self installed dictators?

Colonization was different on each continent (Asia, Africa, S. America, and N. America). Independence happened differently and at different times in history.

 

[danjuno]

How frequently have newly independent nations been taken over by their military? How soon after independence have the military coups taken hold? Are the goals of military leadership the same as those of more democratic leadership or self installed dictators?

Colonization was different on each continent (Asia, Africa, S. America, and N. America). Independence happened differently and at different times in history.

As I recall, a number of post-independence leaders did have backgrounds in the colonial militaries.

 

[Lexicus]

Do we get to blame the Funding Fathers for Trump because of the the way they set up the constitution?

Yes, he literally won his first election because of the 'DEI for slaveholders' mechanism that they added to the Constitution to ensure that the slaveholding oligarchy could effectively choose the President

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes, he literally won his first election because of the 'DEI for slaveholders' mechanism that they added to the Constitution to ensure that the slaveholding oligarchy could effectively choose the President

How many opportunities have there been since 1792 to change those provisions? Why weren't they changed?

 

[Lexicus]

How many opportunities have there been since 1792 to change those provisions? Why weren't they changed?

Partly because the framers also made it way too hard to change the Constitution, partly because the vast majority of Americans foolishly see the framers as geniuses and the Constitution as the greatest political document in human history

 

[Birdjaguar]

Partly because the framers also made it way too hard to change the Constitution, partly because the vast majority of Americans foolishly see the framers as geniuses and the Constitution as the greatest political document in human history

Yes, but. There have been 27 amendments; 17 of which were passed after the country got going. The last one was in 1992. The 18th was both passed and repealed. Prior to our current deadlock, while not common, amendments did happen.

 

[Ajidica]

*taps sign*

The problems caused by the British didn't magically disappear with them. Something on that scale might takes centuries to be corrected.

For big structural issues, sure, but it doesn't create a 'no responsibility zone' for intentional, chosen actions.
Unless you want to explain how Belgium or France forced Paul Kagame to order the murder of Seth Sendashonga, or how Agathe Habyarimana's akazu was really just a helpless bystander as it was actually Belgium and France planning out a genocide.

Understanding the role of colonial powers* and how it has hindered economic and political development in Africa is important, but it is equally to important to acknowledge how much of the problems in modern Africa are the result of intentional choices made by those in power.

*And not just white colonial powers either.

Zanzibar Revolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[amadeus]

*And not just white colonial powers either.

Without trying to muddy the waters in this discussion, I wonder where, or if, we can draw a clear line between colonizing power and not—the Ottoman Turks held sway over great swathes of land for centuries, are they colonizers?

The Mughals ran an empire that at one point stretched over the majority-Hindu India.

And the Manchus? We think of the Qing now as a backward state, but we don’t think of it as being the fault of a colonizing force.

Is it because these states have all gone out of existence that they are not considered, or absolved of some responsibility? Or was it only the most recent interventions by, usually the British, in wholly creating the situation that persists to this day?

 

[Ordnael]

*And not just white colonial powers either.

I think native tribes warring and enslaving each other before and after contact with Europeans should take some of the blame, no?
"The Europeans messed us up forever" and "We demand reparations for all the evils you committed" shticks doesn’t stick with me!
The Portuguese left it's Africans colonies in some ways more developed and with better infrastructure then what we had in Portugal.

 

[r16]

so that the Anglosaxons wouldn't decide your Ultramar , that was the Ultramar , wasn't it ? Yes , your overseas territories , legally declared to be not colonies but part of Portugal itself , were backwards and had to be civilized or something . The Indian invasion of Goa was a staggering shock supposedly .

 

[danjuno]

For big structural issues, sure, but it doesn't create a 'no responsibility zone' for intentional, chosen actions.
Unless you want to explain how Belgium or France forced Paul Kagame to order the murder of Seth Sendashonga, or how Agathe Habyarimana's akazu was really just a helpless bystander as it was actually Belgium and France planning out a genocide.

Understanding the role of colonial powers* and how it has hindered economic and political development in Africa is important, but it is equally to important to acknowledge how much of the problems in modern Africa are the result of intentional choices made by those in power.

*And not just white colonial powers either.

Zanzibar Revolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What are you talking about? Cloud was responding to EE denying the long-term negative effects of colonialism, and you come in and accuse them of denying the natives had any agency at all.

 

[EnglishEdward]

What are you talking about? Cloud was responding to EE denying the long-term negative effects of colonialism, and you come in and accuse them of denying the natives had any agency at all.

I have carefully re-read both of Ajidica's posts in this particular thread several
times, and neither of them includes any accusation about other posters.