Colonialism, Exploitation and Independence

[danjuno]

I have carefully re-read both of Ajidica's posts in this particular thread several
times, and neither of them includes any accusation about other posters.

I don't care about your pedantry. Ajidica misrepresented Cloud.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Your comment about what Ajidica said was inaccurate.

 

[danjuno]

Your comment about what Ajidica said was inaccurate.

Misrepresenting someone is accusing them of saying something they didn't.

Anyway:

An interesting map, I think it's note worthy that, in terms of former British Colonies, the disparity between Settler Colonies and the rest the former Empire bears noting.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Which is what you did.

 

[Ajidica]

The Portuguese left it's Africans colonies in some ways more developed and with better infrastructure then what we had in Portugal.

That doesn't excuse Portugal for being there in the first place, nor for fighting to maintain white rule in Africa until *checks notes* 1974! Don't mistake me for someone who accepts "but we gave them railways" colonial apologism.
Portugal, due to the length of time they were present in Africa, had an interesting relation with its colonies, but even under the most progressive interpretation of Portuguese policies, the relation fundamentally was - to borrow a phrase from Kenneth Kaunda - "the relation between the master and the horse".
Plus we have the whole mesticos/assimilado and pretos/matumbos situation, where the 'creole' / Lusophonic class basically adopted Portuguese colonial ideology and racist beliefs, which does not reflect well on Portugal's occasional attempt to present itself as a good colonial master.

What are you talking about? Cloud was responding to EE denying the long-term negative effects of colonialism, and you come in and accuse them of denying the natives had any agency at all.

So, I understood Cloud's post largely saying the problems in modern Africa are due to colonialism (though I'm not sure where the 'easily lead to nuclear war' part came from). This is a sentiment I come across fairly frequently, where every problem up and down Africa gets blamed on "colonialism". I have intense dislike of that position as it basically reduces African elites to - at best- sad puppets of history trapped by those long dead.
You then replied to me, quoting your own post saying "The problems caused by the British didn't magically disappear with them. Something on that scale might takes centuries to be corrected." (I'm assuming you hold similar beliefs about French, Belgian, Spanish, and Portuguese colonial rule in Africa.) I read that as basically the same as what Cloud was saying.

In other words, Paul Kagame ordering the murder of Seth Sendashonga and kidnapping Paul Rusesabagina is due to Belgian rule / francafrique and not the RPF elites and leadership choosing to set up a one-party Tutsi rule state.
Or similarly with Agathe Habyarimana's akazu planning the Rwandan genocide (and incidentally the murder of her husband) in order to retain their economic and political influence in a one-party Hutu Power state.

 

[Lexicus]

So, I understood Cloud's post largely saying the problems in modern Africa are due to colonialism (though I'm not sure where the 'easily lead to nuclear war' part came from). This is a sentiment I come across fairly frequently, where every problem up and down Africa gets blamed on "colonialism". I have intense dislike of that position as it basically reduces African elites to - at best- sad puppets of history trapped by those long dead.

The obvious point is that African elites are acting within a context that has been shaped almost entirely by colonialism. This doesn't mean they are puppets with no agency. "Men make their own history, but they do not make it under conditions of their own choosing"

 

[Ajidica]

The obvious point is that African elites are acting within a context that has been shaped almost entirely by colonialism. This doesn't mean they are puppets with no agency. "Men make their own history, but they do not make it under conditions of their own choosing"

Sure, but everyone is shaped by context. Donald Trump was elected twice - and given a supplicant congress - in a context heavily shaped by America's shameful failure to address slavery and Jim Crow. Netanyahu grew up in a context where a few decades prior a country tried to exterminate his ethnicity on industrial lines, his country repeatedly invaded under existential threat, and active state sponsorship of anti-Jewish terrorism.

Yet if someone were to suggest that their context in some way excuses their actions, I feel comfortable in saying both of us would laugh at them!

 

[danjuno]

Who exactly is saying it excuses their actions?

 

[Ordnael]

That doesn't excuse Portugal for being there in the first place, nor for fighting to maintain white rule in Africa until *checks notes* 1974! Don't mistake me for someone who accepts "but we gave them railways" colonial apologism.
Portugal, due to the length of time they were present in Africa, had an interesting relation with its colonies, but even under the most progressive interpretation of Portuguese policies, the relation fundamentally was - to borrow a phrase from Kenneth Kaunda - "the relation between the master and the horse".
Plus we have the whole mesticos/assimilado and pretos/matumbos situation, where the 'creole' / Lusophonic class basically adopted Portuguese colonial ideology and racist beliefs, which does not reflect well on Portugal's occasional attempt to present itself as a good colonial master.

No. The excuse was the same for all the colonial powers, let's explore the world both in cartography and in resources. Not any different from what natives tribes were doing to each other.
Nothing of what you wrote beyond the "excuse" of getting to there denies anything of what I wrote before does it?
I am not denying what you wrote either. Yes there was racism and we evolved beyond that. People on those lands haven't evolved much beyond that though...I have heard and read that mestizos and browns despise deep black/ebony folks...but no one cares about systemic racism in Africa now do they?
And before anyone comes around swinging at me I will say here and now that my father was born there in Angola and so was my mother in law, both sons of the last wave of Portuguese looking to escape the extreme poverty of their mainland. So don't come all high and mighty thinking you know better...you don't! Did the Potuguese commit really bad things there, yes yes we did...compared to other colonial powers we were choir boys though...I am not looking for excuses, I am looking beyond. Racism is dead only some sects are always trying to unbury it for virtue signalling points...how I despise people on their Ivory towers that know nothing of the working man. We welcome everyone that comes with an open heart and willing to work for his keep and that's why most of the migrants from former colonies have a good integration rate...not all though, recent "kids" have been problematic demanding stuff like we from stole them...no you were stolen by your own people not mine!

 

[Samson]

For big structural issues, sure, but it doesn't create a 'no responsibility zone' for intentional, chosen actions.
Unless you want to explain how Belgium or France forced Paul Kagame to order the murder of Seth Sendashonga, or how Agathe Habyarimana's akazu was really just a helpless bystander as it was actually Belgium and France planning out a genocide.

Understanding the role of colonial powers* and how it has hindered economic and political development in Africa is important, but it is equally to important to acknowledge how much of the problems in modern Africa are the result of intentional choices made by those in power.

*And not just white colonial powers either.

Zanzibar Revolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Donald Trump was elected twice - and given a supplicant congress - in a context heavily shaped by America's shameful failure to address slavery and Jim Crow.

The question is why did Africa end up with Paul Kagame, Seth Sendashonga, and Agathe Habyarimana while the worst leader you quote from the bits of the world where white people could work the land is Trump?

I do not think anyone is trying to excuse the despots of responsibility, and if they were in the position the UK is in to ameliorate the problems then there would be significant pressure for them to do so.

As it is they are not, but the UK is and it appears to be very good statistical evidence that had they made different choices things would be different. It seems more off a philosophical rather than historical question as to what the response should be.

 

[Akka]

Anyway:

A bit of a tangent, but I find very interesting to compare this map (MEAN wealth) with this one (MEDIAN wealth) :

 

[Samson]

A bit of a tangent, but I find very interesting to compare this map (MEAN wealth) with this one (MEDIAN wealth) :

I wonder why there are so many countries for which there is enough data to work out the mean but not the median?

 

[Verbose]

The obvious point is that African elites are acting within a context that has been shaped almost entirely by colonialism. This doesn't mean they are puppets with no agency. "Men make their own history, but they do not make it under conditions of their own choosing"

That seems certain, but then no one actually gets conditions of their chosing here – everyone makes choices only within constraints imposed on them by history, for starters. What has happened is that these European, western, limited conditions still allowed them to, in varying degrees, impose themselves on non-westerners in turn. And the end result we can observe.

 

[Akka]

I wonder why there are so many countries for which there is enough data to work out the mean but not the median?

I suppose that mean can be derived from GDP figures or something, but median require much more comprehensive data.

 

[Samson]

I suppose that mean can be derived from GDP figures or something, but median require much more comprehensive data.

I guess so, but does that mean that Greenland is missing data that is available for the rest of the western world?

 

[EnglishEdward]

That seems certain, but then no one actually gets conditions of their chosing here – everyone makes choices only within constraints imposed on them by history, for starters. What has happened is that these European, western, limited conditions still allowed them to, in varying degrees, impose themselves on non-westerners in turn. And the end result we can observe.

Yes, but it works both ways.

The Chinese invented gunpowder and that has had an impact on Western Europe.

 

[Akka]

I guess so, but does that mean that Greenland is missing data that is available for the rest of the western world?

Probably part of Denmark data, hence hard to separate.
I'm more puzzled at Netherland greyness.

 

[danjuno]

People on those lands haven't evolved much beyond that though...I have heard and read that mestizos and browns despise deep black/ebony folks...but no one cares about systemic racism in Africa now do they?

Multiple people in this thread have mentioned the post-independence ethnic conflicts in Africa.

 

[Arwon]

I wonder why there are so many countries for which there is enough data to work out the mean but not the median?

I think the median is almost exclusively going to be a measure of a section of residential home valuations. That may be harder information to get in some places than overall stock estimates.

 

[Ordnael]

Multiple people in this thread have mentioned the post-independence ethnic conflicts in Africa.

I don't get this comment.
You calling me out on something?
Does calling it "post-independence ethnic conflicts" make the racism I mentioned go away?
Are you denying the racism I mentioned?
Are native Africans incapable of racism?
I don't get it? Is this a gotcha?
...
Would your preferred form of government solve any of the problems in Africa? Is Anarchy a form of government...I don't think so... it all boils down to might is right...so if you aren't Rambo how would anyone survive anarchy...these questions echoes in mind before I sleep. Your declaration of anarchism is living rent free in me...you might have won this one!