Combat Odds not working properly?

[TheMeInTeam]

They're both top tier rush units. Their 2 move cuts down on a lot of turns traveling to the AI, and even more turns from the AI whipping additional units (stock, non-UU chariots can occasionally cut down 2 civs on immortal/normal if you have BFC horse!). These things can also fork cities which while more important in MP is not irrelevant to the early rush in SP.

Chariot rushes are as good if not better than axe rushes if you're talking about the base unit. Both UU chariots offer huge benefits over the base unit. Admittedly, these things are a bit weaker on marathon where lollerwars are super easy anyway, but on normal speed they're a better UU than even the quecha and probably better than the prat as well.

 

[Optical]

They're both top tier rush units. Their 2 move cuts down on a lot of turns traveling to the AI, and even more turns from the AI whipping additional units (stock, non-UU chariots can occasionally cut down 2 civs on immortal/normal if you have BFC horse!). These things can also fork cities which while more important in MP is not irrelevant to the early rush in SP.

Chariot rushes are as good if not better than axe rushes if you're talking about the base unit. Both UU chariots offer huge benefits over the base unit. Admittedly, these things are a bit weaker on marathon where lollerwars are super easy anyway, but on normal speed they're a better UU than even the quecha and probably better than the prat as well.

This. Archers with CG are a tough nut to crack, and those aren't bad odds for the first attack.

 

[G-Max]

If you're willing to sacrifice most of your military in the process of wiping out another civ, then I suppose they're okay. Personally, I prefer to promote most of my military in the process of wiping out another civ.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you're willing to sacrifice most of your military in the process of wiping out another civ, then I suppose they're okay. Personally, I prefer to promote most of my military in the process of wiping out another civ.

Okay, then tell us what early-game unit you're using that's pulling >50% odds on a consistent basis...or do you just never rush? Or do you play difficulties where you can lollerroller the AI with crap like axe vs warrior?

Even in catapult or medieval wars you're going to lose some units. You hit a hill city with a few longbows and you'll have <50% odds there...or protective guys packing CG III.

A war chariot is strictly superior to an axe vs archers and moves twice as fast.

Basically you'll never get situations with 0 losses outside of big tech leads, and even there the RNG can find ways to argue . Short of that war chariots are either the most cost-effective rush unit in the entire game on normal speed, or very close.

 

[G-Max]

Okay, then tell us what early-game unit you're using that's pulling >50% odds on a consistent basis...

Praetorian.

Yes, quite a few of them die, but most live at least long enough to get their CR III badges. Conquer half of the damn world before anyone gets Crossbows.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Praetorian.

Yes, quite a few of them die, but most live at least long enough to get their CR III badges. Conquer half of the damn world before anyone gets Crossbows.

Hahahaha. The roman prat stomp is typical.

But prats are slow, and on high levels xbows can show up as early as the BCs (so can longbows which aren't exactly kind either). They also struggle vs AGG axes and axes defending cities in general (especially pre-siege), so they're not exactly gimme units on immortal+.

Of course, they'll roll below immortal, but you can conquer more than half the world by simply spamming horse archers below immortal if you know what you're doing, so they're nothing particularly special there either (unless of course you're abusing mara).

 

[uat2d]

That's why I hate Ancient warfare. The defender always wins, and I dislike to having to reload back the game constantly because I lost a City Raider III Swordsman to a City Garrison I Archer.

My games only really starts when my Trebuchets start rolling, and the best warfare is the modern warfare, when tanks, fighters, paratroopers and artillery become available.

TheMeInTeam, just because I joined the forums first doesn't mean I'm a better player. I probably just went like a over full year without touching Civ, during which time I only checked this forum for its humor & jokes board. I have only recently rediscovered Civ4 because of Civ5 (which kinda sucked).

Just because I've been here for longer than you doesn't mean I play better than you. In fact, I have never even seriously tried to win anything over Prince, so I guess I'm below average on this forum.

 

[G-Max]

Yes, axes and crossbows are rather annoying for Praets to crack. But you know what's an even bigger challenge? Chariots vs. Archers, or god forbid, Chariots vs. Spears.

By the time anyone has crossbows or longbows, a good Roman player should already have Catapults rolling. Problem solved. What do Chariot-rushers use to crack those combo archer/spear cities?

 

[Ghpstage]

What do Chariot-rushers use to crack those combo archer/spear cities?

Speed.
You can hit an AI before they get spears suprisingly often, and even if they do have a couple, removing access to copper in the first 2-3 turns means they won't have many to defend with.
Chariots can typically take a city on the first turn of war, picking a good city to attack helps a lot. If you can take the capital on turn 1 then the AIs ability to defend itself effectively pretty much collapses.
The speed reduces the number of defenders the AI can build/whip in cities, so you also face signifcantly fewer enemies than if you used axes instead.

 

[G-Max]

removing access to copper in the first 2-3 turns means they won't have many to defend with.

Because those spears won't come and roflpwn the chariot that's sitting on the copper?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Not when it is pillaged and they didn't build enough spears (this is the AI we are talking about here).
You can also plonk an archer or axe on the tile once you have pillaged it.

 

[Farm Boy]

Because those spears won't come and roflpwn the chariot that's sitting on the copper?

roflpwn? I could use that acronym being broken down for me. I believe your signature encourages the request.

 

[G-Max]

"rofl" = rolling on the floor laughing

"pwn" = own = defeat, kill, rape, humiliate.

ergo, "roflpwn" = hilariously unfair fight

 

[uat2d]

rolling on the floor raping...?

lolwut

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Let's put it this way G-max: try pulling a prat rush against 2 AI on immortal/normal (it's OK to reroll mansa and sitting bull, who nobody would rush unless desperate) a few times and tell us how it goes, because that's just as possible if not easier with war chariots. There's a lot to be said for fighting 100's fewer units and investing less oneself.

 

[G-Max]

You wanted to know "what early-game unit you're using that's pulling >50% odds on a consistent basis". Praetorians do exactly that, and as a result, my army is stronger, not weaker, when the rush is over. It's not as brutally fast as a Quechua or Chariot rush, but it leaves me in a position to immediately rush the next guy, and the guy after that, without devoting 100% of my cities to replacing lost units 100% of the time.

But yeah, if you only have one or two opponents, then thinking long-term doesn't really pay off.

 

[Farm Boy]

I believe the problem is that on Immortal the promoted praets really are not going to be as terribly useful as they are below. If you have managed to successfully curb stomp two immortal AIs with praets on normal speed you have probably also taken enough turns that remaining AI cities are staring at you with longbows/xbows/macemen/castles. The numbers of defending troops will not be small and you are probably looking at some work to retool your economy so you can stay in the tech game.

I think TMIT is building in the assumption of praets getting tech-blocked at an earlier date you are G.

 

[G-Max]

That's why I don't play on speed/difficulty combinations that warp the game balance. Suboptimal strategies suddenly become the best ways to win, and well-balanced, long-term strategies allow the AIs to leverage their artificial advantages.

Instead of one human vs. a bunch of Immortal AIs, think of two humans (one Roman, one Egyptian) vs. a bunch of Noble or Prince AIs. The Egyptian player will get a small head start, but the Roman player will be able to go much longer before being blunted by Crossbows than the Egyptian player will before being stopped by Spears. You figure out the consequences of that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That's why I don't play on speed/difficulty combinations that warp the game balance. Suboptimal strategies suddenly become the best ways to win, and well-balanced, long-term strategies allow the AIs to leverage their artificial advantages.

Instead of one human vs. a bunch of Immortal AIs, think of two humans (one Roman, one Egyptian) vs. a bunch of Noble or Prince AIs. The Egyptian player will get a small head start, but the Roman player will be able to go much longer before being blunted by Crossbows than the Egyptian player will before being stopped by Spears. You figure out the consequences of that.

The human using rome getting rolled before he ever sees iron? You again neglected to mention game speed; it's going to matter DRASTICALLY. On mara prats take it easy while on quick the war chariots are disgustingly better.

There are a few things in favor of war chariots you flat-out neglect that really hurt your ability to compare the units:

1. War chariots cost 50% less hammers than praetorians. If a prat wins at 70% while the WC is more like 30% (with withdrawal of 10%), don't forget that some of that variance is made up in unit cost. It's not like surviving WC don't get promotions also.

2. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. 2 moves. Even at a neutral speed like normal, the value of 2 moves is obscene. 2 move units force fights in more favorable locations and FIGHT FEWER UNITS. Prats struggle to effectively fork cities; war chariots do this easily. Prats will see 1-3 additional units/city than war chariots due to extra whip/hammer time while the prats travel. Your perception of the praetorian attrition advantage is therefore overblown. Significantly.

3. War chariots are a lot earlier. AH ----> hook horse, compared to "food resource(s) -----> bw -----> IW (and you need wheel in there at some point too, which egypt starts having teched). Without a strong commerce resource rome will struggle to field material #'s of prats before 1000 BC or even somewhat after. Egypt can have already killed someone off by then!

"small head start"? Egypt is an entire civ up before you even declare with >half your starts (and that translates to a production advantage even FURTHER cutting whatever attrition advantage the prats are getting). And on trash difficulties like noble, it's simple enough to slaughter 4-5 civs with WC anyway; on standard maps that will be virtually every AI. Where's Rome's advantage in this regard?! The if you DO go up in difficulty, hitting sooner before you run into situations like "hill capitol with 5 axes" (not an uncommon sight on immortal if you declare much after 1000 BC) is a big advantage.

4. On top of all of the above, AH is a priority early tech because of the food resources it unlocks. Even for rome it might be your priority tech with some starts. IW on the other hand...is not a priority tech. It's easy to trade for it from the AI since the AI prioritizes it, and if you don't have iron it gives you no utility for a long time, making the WC a safer unit to pursue also.

On anything short of marathon the prat is an inferior rush unit. It requires a large investment without a guaranteed payoff (no iron = you're SoL on the rush and wind up MANY beakers behind) that does not put the civ materially ahead.

You're still grossly underestimating chariots BTW. Not the war kind, just normal chariots. It's amazingly easy with nearby horse to snuff 80% of civs or so using basic chariots on immortal; the 2 move is just that powerful.

 

[Ataxerxes]

That's why I don't play on speed/difficulty combinations that warp the game balance. Suboptimal strategies suddenly become the best ways to win, and well-balanced, long-term strategies allow the AIs to leverage their artificial advantages.

Instead of one human vs. a bunch of Immortal AIs, think of two humans (one Roman, one Egyptian) vs. a bunch of Noble or Prince AIs. The Egyptian player will get a small head start, but the Roman player will be able to go much longer before being blunted by Crossbows than the Egyptian player will before being stopped by Spears. You figure out the consequences of that.

The problem is either Egypt or Rome will do quite well and set up a winning position. However, Egypt will be done with the war and concentrating on teching before the Roman player. The Roman player will have more Praets left over and will have conquered more cities. The Egyptian player will have invested fewer hammers in the rush and will be able to start using hammers for domestic pursuits faster with more peaceful expansion.

Rome does a slightly better job of dominating those levels but for making sure of a win I'd be more likely to want Egypt. AH is a good tech even if you aren't rushing.

And game speed does matter. On Normal you want War Chariots, on Marathon you want Prats.