Commerce flow chart

Hey Mec,
before i go into some details there is one thing i like to add. The flowchart is already alot more than only a flow chart only for commerce. I think neither of the two extreme approaches (really ONLY commerce or include everything of the economic model) makes much sense as the first would be too simple and the latter too complicated. Its very difficult to find a good way inbetween and i agree on most of your points to keep it simple. I thought about this as i recognized that corporations are not included at all although they can be a source of hammers, culture and beakers. However i would not add them but make a sidenote (which can be useful for other infos, see below) that corps are excluded in this flowchart. About the points you mentioned:

Modifier and raw sections: I would still include the percentage values of the modifiers and keep the raw section with pictures as it is because there is one significant difference between the two: The modifiers are always the same for every city in every game while this does not hold for the beakers/culture/wealth generation. For example the amount of beakers per specialist also depends on the civics (representation). To clarify things possibly you can add the information to the above mentioned sidenote, something like "values can differ depending on civics (specialists, GPs), wonders that you built (uni of Sankore), how long a building is present on your city (culture doubles every... dunno 2k years?) and how much a religion is spread (shrine)".

Arrow on the bottom right: Actually as i thought more about it its even more complicated hehe. My first idea was to add a XOR button in the very bottom right to emphasize that you can only build research OR culture OR wealth. From there three arrow point upwards, first to coin icon, second behind coin icon to culture and third behind coin/culture icon to beaker icon. However there are problems with that. First i dont think most people know what XOR means (like in real flowcharts), second gold from failwonders, pillage etc does of course not point towards culture and beakers... well im still thinking about this but i dont have a solution to include all this stuff and still keep it simple :)

Some minor notes:
-the description of the raw sections at the bottom of each part is not consistent ("GP" and "settled GP" for example)
-two of the settled scientists dont have that little star symbol. I guess this is because those two come from the great lib. This could be a little bit confusing... simply replace it with the scientist+star symbol
-in the wealth raw section use another religious building than the confucian temple because its already used in the beakers section. One could ask why it gives +gold in one case and +science in the other
-in the culture modifiers section use Hermitage (national wonder) and broadcast tower instead of two of the religious buildings to reflect the diversity how culture can be multiplied

I hope my comments do help and im looking forward for you next version.

Greetings Knightly_
 
Some more interesting points, I will look at them closely when I get a chance. Thank you.

I wanted to post a new version but Photobucket is playing hard to get so I will have to do it later. I can tell you that I found a reasonable solution to the arrow question. I shortened the arrow so that it isn't closely related to the coins and added two extra arrowheads [it looks like this: -------->->->] implying that the arrow continues up to the three possible output icons. It is slightly less beautiful but, I think, effective.
 
Glad you like it!


Knightly_,

1) The whole chart was originally based on Vanilla but one or two elements from Warlords have slipped in. I'm ignoring BtS for the time being. Trying to fit espionage in is something I want to put off as long as possible. That could be covered in an accompanying text however. Anyway, that's why Corps are absent, I don't know a thing about Corps. Yet.

2) I'm not sure modifier values are really needed. That information is pretty basic and, most importantly, easily available, just hover over the icon in the game and it tells you that. It might be more confusing to make it look like that information should show up in the city screen.

3) I'm still unable to post the latest version with the new arrow. It will come, one day.

4)

-Inconsistency in descriptions arises out of space limitation, it is the only way to fit it in. In addition, the inconsistencies serve to explain each other. At least that was my thinking, but I see now that someone might imagine that there is a difference between GP and Settled GP. I don't think I can make them all the same in the pixels I have at hand though.

-I don't agree with you about the GS from the GL being confusing, they may occur in someone's game and should be recognizable. Interesting point of view though. You are a stickler for uniformity I am learning. That can be a very good thing, but isn't always necessary.

-Perhaps one should ask why a confucian temple can give +gold and/or +science. Otherwise people might think that a Confucian temple gives +gold and a Hindu temple +science.

-I do like the idea of adding some non-religious buildings to the culture modifiers, that makes a lot of sense. It would make it more like the wealth modifiers which already has a good variety of buildings. How could it not? I will do this.

Thanks a lot for your attention to detail and willingness to think things through, it is much appreciated.
 
Manfred, the image is full HD (1920x1080) so it could very well be that your browser is shrinking it down to fit it in. Try downloading it and viewing it in an image viewer.

Hmm, I'm getting a 1024x500ish image. Downloading doesn't make any difference and I don't see any download link other than just the posted image. Oh well.
 
I just took a look at it and it is indeed the resolution you reported. Maybe there is a maximum image size on the forum or at the image hosting site that is causing it to be reduced down to a smaller size. I most certainly uploaded the full-size image. I will look into this when posting the new version.
 
I just took a look at it and it is indeed the resolution you reported. Maybe there is a maximum image size on the forum or at the image hosting site that is causing it to be reduced down to a smaller size. I most certainly uploaded the full-size image. I will look into this when posting the new version.

Try imgur.com and save the image as .png ;)
 
I know this has already been said, but...

This flowchart should DEFINITELY be in the game manual.

Civilisation is a wonderful game. It's a shame that so many new players are put off because they don't understand the game's mechanics. In a game that is really all about economy management (and combat is pretty much decided by RNG's rather than any kind of tactical unit positioning), information about how the game calculates yields is pretty vital information for appreciating the depth in the game play.

On another note, I agree with the earlier post about the chart already including a lot of "non-commerce" outputs. I would definitely keep the "hammer" part of the very first interation of the chart, and in addition to "build wealth, commerce or culture" options, I would have a separate arrow pointing to units, buildings, and projects. If you have time, of course.

For completeness, you could also include "espionage" as an output.

That would make the chart a complete representation of all the "good stuff" that your in-game acquisitions can make for you.
 
Let's give this imgur a try:





On another note, I agree with the earlier post about the chart already including a lot of "non-commerce" outputs. I would definitely keep the "hammer" part of the very first interation of the chart, and in addition to "build wealth, commerce or culture" options, I would have a separate arrow pointing to units, buildings, and projects. If you have time, of course.
Thanks for your comments, let me respond and explain my thinking.

Just to be clear, because in this case it is very important to make the distinction, there is no commerce output. Commerce can be used to create gold (or wealth if you prefer) but commerce never exits the formula, it is always transformed into something else. My focus has been on the relationship between commerce and gold, research and culture. Hammers only enter the picture as they too can be converted into gold, research, and culture. If I were to include units and such, which I did seriously consider, it becomes necessary to address the whip and chop issues which complicated things far too much. That would be appropriate for a hammer flow chart, but not for this one. At first glance it seems like a good idea, but upon reflection I think it better to not add other outputs.

By the way, what you call the first version is really the last version.


For completeness, you could also include "espionage" as an output.
This is a great point, for BtS. When I reach that extension, I started at Vanilla and am slowly working my way through the Expansion packs, it should indeed be included. I don't know how to fit it in while sticking to a full-HD format, but that bridge is for the time being over the horizon.

Thanks for your tips.
 
Great work, would have loved this when I was learning the ropes (and still learned something from it, now). Fantastic presentation. Got some feedback on 1.4 (I notice you're not on BTS, so it's understandable that you've missed out Spies, but I'll mention them anyway for completeness):


Raw Beakers: shows Scientists, but Artists and Spies generate 1 as well. GP should be GE, GS, GSpy.


Raw Gold: shows a Merchant, but Priests generate 1 as well. GP should be GA, GM, GPro.


Raw Culture: GP should be GA.


Raw Hammers: shows Engineers and GEs and a GPro, but Priests and Citizens generate Hammers as well.

There's an argument to reformat this box; Railroads, Universal Suffrage, Caste System, Guilds, Chemistry, Replaceable Parts and Levee increase Tile yield, and Angkor Wat increases Priest yield.

Also, when you get up to BTS (there's very little reason not to jump straight in, for every 'gradual learning' benefit of starting with Vanilla there's a habit you'll need to unlearn), the Apostolic Palace makes religious buildings generate 2 Hammers, and Moai Statues also increase Tile yield.


Speaking of BTS, you'll want to add an extra line in each Raw box for Corporations. (Or perhaps put all Specialists in one line to make room.) Dunno if this has been mentioned, yet.


Commerce Formation Mods: I'd suggest splitting Trade into Trade Routes and Trade Yield:

Trade Routes: GLH, Currency, Castle, Free Market, Corp, Airport, Single Currency.

Trade Route Yield: Population, Overseas, Foreign, Peace, Harbour, Artemis, Your city is connected to your Capital (the three arrows 'on trade network' icon should suffice to cut that mouthful down), Customs (only if Overseas AND Foreign - convoluted, but important point).

Also, Environmentalism and Colossus add to Tile.


Hammer Modifiers: State Property adds +10%.


Should overflow from Slavery be anywhere? Or to put it another way, does whipping a unit and then next turn building wealth convert the excess into gold? If so, does that excess get run through modifiers before becoming gold? (That could make for interesting shenanigans with Monty, or cities with happiness to spare from supporting a Culture victory...)

Edit: and what about chopping? Whilst not generally used for conversion, it'll overflow from time to time - and I can foresee using chops in a desperate race to techs with first finder bonuses - Liberalism, religions, the odd GP, and - in BTS - Corporations.
 
Damn, it's great :D

It did however completely enlarged the page, no wonder, 1.920px × 1.080px :p

Yes it does work well, thank you for the tip. I did keep it as a jpg though because the png version of the file was much too large. Perhaps there is a way to make it more compact but I don't have any experience with png files. And yes, it is a page-breaker to be sure.

Great work, would have loved this when I was learning the ropes (and still learned something from it, now). Fantastic presentation.

Why thank you. I too would have loved it when I was learning the ropes and I too learned something from it now.


Got some feedback on 1.4 (I notice you're not on BTS, so it's understandable that you've missed out Spies, but I'll mention them anyway for completeness):


Raw Beakers: shows Scientists, but Artists and Spies generate 1 as well. GP should be GE, GS, GSpy.


Raw Gold: shows a Merchant, but Priests generate 1 as well. GP should be GA, GM, GPro.


Raw Culture: GP should be GA.


Raw Hammers: shows Engineers and GEs and a GPro, but Priests and Citizens generate Hammers as well.

There's an argument to reformat this box; Railroads, Universal Suffrage, Caste System, Guilds, Chemistry, Replaceable Parts and Levee increase Tile yield, and Angkor Wat increases Priest yield.

Also, when you get up to BTS (there's very little reason not to jump straight in, for every 'gradual learning' benefit of starting with Vanilla there's a habit you'll need to unlearn), the Apostolic Palace makes religious buildings generate 2 Hammers, and Moai Statues also increase Tile yield.


Speaking of BTS, you'll want to add an extra line in each Raw box for Corporations. (Or perhaps put all Specialists in one line to make room.) Dunno if this has been mentioned, yet.


Commerce Formation Mods: I'd suggest splitting Trade into Trade Routes and Trade Yield:

Trade Routes: GLH, Currency, Castle, Free Market, Corp, Airport, Single Currency.

Trade Route Yield: Population, Overseas, Foreign, Peace, Harbour, Artemis, Your city is connected to your Capital (the three arrows 'on trade network' icon should suffice to cut that mouthful down), Customs (only if Overseas AND Foreign - convoluted, but important point).

Also, Environmentalism and Colossus add to Tile.


Hammer Modifiers: State Property adds +10%.


Should overflow from Slavery be anywhere? Or to put it another way, does whipping a unit and then next turn building wealth convert the excess into gold? If so, does that excess get run through modifiers before becoming gold? (That could make for interesting shenanigans with Monty, or cities with happiness to spare from supporting a Culture victory...)

Edit: and what about chopping? Whilst not generally used for conversion, it'll overflow from time to time - and I can foresee using chops in a desperate race to techs with first finder bonuses - Liberalism, religions, the odd GP, and - in BTS - Corporations.

Lindsay40k,
First, thank you for investing your time and effort into looking at and commenting on the chart, it is much appreciated. Now let me respond to your points.

1. It seems that your specialists produce different returns than mine do. I went back to see what I missed and could not find the values you specify for specialists. I assume for the time being that BtS has changed the details of specialists and that what you state holds true for BtS but not for Vanilla or Warlords. As the chart is directed at the first two versions of the game I think it wise to keep the beakers, culture, and gold produced by specialists as it is. If I make a BtS version then I will certainly incorporate your points. Thanks for alerting me to these changes.
"
2. I use "GP" to mean "Great Person" not "Great Prophet". I was looking for a single term to save space in the text line at the bottom of the blocks. I don't think it necessary to specify each type of Great Person there. Do you?

3. The whole line of hammer information is meant to be quite limited as it is already taking up a lot of space and attention for the role it plays in terms of the commerce and gold production. I had a list of hammer modifiers at one point, I am a bit of a sucker for completeness, but have left it off with the desire to keep the focus on commerce. I still think this can be better handled in a separate production flow chart. Knowing that Railroads will boost hammer values of some times seems relatively unimportant to understanding the relationship between commerce and gold, which really is the the core of the subject at hand. Bsasically I think it is very tempting to have a list of hammer production mods akin to the commerce production mods but the simplicity of not including it here wins out. This applies to the role of Citizens as well.

3b. Hammer overflow from whipping and chopping is never transformed into beakers, culture or wealth as I understand it. Any overflow is set aside while cities are building any of those three things and applied when the city begins to produce a unit, building, wonder or project. This being the key to whipping into wonders. Rush buying is handled similarly. I continue to find this an interesting and poorly understood point however and have a desire to address it in a hammer/food flow chart.

4. Interesting points about Commerce Formation Mods. Some things are indeed missing at present and there is a logic to the split you suggest in the number of trade routes and the value of those routes. I shall consider this further. It would require violating the size pattern of the blocks to fit it in so I will need to judge which aspect outweighs the other. I will play around with this idea, thanks for bring it up.

5.BtS. The reason I am not playing it at present is not that I am looking for a slow introduction to the game but because I deeply enjoying adding new elements over time. It is like unwrapping three boxes at Christmas instead of only one. Thank you for all the points you make about the changes in BtS, I will certainly need help in discovering the details involved when I start on that version of the chart.
 
Glad to have been of help :)

Doesn't surprise me that specialists are a bit different between versions.

Where I'm talking about Great People, I mean specifically your boxes within the three Raw boxes that show the little GP heads. Certainly from where I'm looking, the GP heads in each Raw box don't match up to which GPs do (and don't) produce certain Raw. BUT, that could be because I'm looking at BTS :)
 
You mean they changed the GP icons in BtS? That is quite a surprise. Although the merchant does look like an artist, but changing it? Very strange indeed. Needs a closer look.
 
Nonono, the icons are the same, it's their effects that have changed, judging from what you say.
 
So, when you say "Raw Culture: GP should be GA." you mean that the picture of the little head in the Raw Culture 1 box isn't an Artist? It is in Warlords. Wait, let me check again. Yes, that's still an Artist specialist. I do see that the Artists generate 1 beaker, just like you stated above. I didn't know that, perhaps that is a change from Vanilla.

I suspect that the icons got switched in the way that the image of Kublai Khan and Qin got switched. Or do I still not understand what you mean? I must admit that I am pretty confused here.
 
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