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Commerce flow chart

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Mec AntiKythera, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Edit:

    If you want to see the newest version open the spoiler below.
    Spoiler :





    START ORIGINAL POST:

    I noticed during a Culture game that I was still unsure about some of the finer points of distinction between Commerce, Gold and Wealth. In terms of which sources were modified by which civics and buildings I just couldn't say. So I decided to make it visual and try to learn it that way. I put together this diagram and am hoping that some of you who know this stuff can comment on whether or not I got it right.



    All corrections and suggestions are welcome. Still working on the colors and typography.
     
  2. ajsciri4

    ajsciri4 Warlord

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    It finally makes sense! Thank you so much, this should be stickied somewhere. Like the strategy and tips forum.
     
  3. SamSniped

    SamSniped DJ Goodboye

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    It looks good to me! :goodjob:
     
  4. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Very nice - your flowchart is much, much, better looking than mine :goodjob:

    Remarks:

    - Commerce tiles need not be cottages!
    - Raw science can all also come from buildings (e.g. U Sankore)
    - Wonder fail gold is another source of gold
    - Gold from "build wealth" goes through hammer multipliers
    - (Also do "build science" and "build culture" if they were to be shown)
    - Espionage could perhaps be shown as a fourth kind of output (BTS)
     
  5. elohssa

    elohssa Warlord

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    I think this chart shouldn't be too complex/detailed but I agree that the points in bold are definitely important enough to be worth inclusion.
     
  6. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    That's a nice chart.

    Perhaps a second one to show where building wealth, etc works, to keep that one from being complicated, if you want - but that's a great chart. Some version of that should go somewhere.
     
  7. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    This should definitely be stickied. New players often have no idea about what the difference between commerce and gold is.
     
  8. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

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    There's also the raw wealth and culture you can build with hammers that aren't affected by multiplier.
     
  9. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Thank you for the feedback everyone, it's good to hear you like it. I agree that it is missing some things, one of which I corrected already, see below. Some aspects might better be saved for a different chart, perhaps one for hammers. That might even be a place to address things like whipping and hammer bonuses for workers and related issues. That is where I would put the hammer bonus for building wealth, but perhaps it needs a mention here as well.

    Are there any inaccuracies in it? Factual errors that need correcting? Is the format OK? Is it legible?


    Thanks, I did it so that it would make sense to me and realized it might be good for others as well. I was never really sure what do to with Wall Street in a Culture game or how to maximize Settled Great Prophets. I thought Bureaucracy would boost their gold output, looks like that isn't so.


    Thank you.


    Thanks for the remarks, you make some very good points.

    -Correct! I adjusted this in version 1.1, below
    -True, I was basing it on Vanilla but I should worm that in too
    -Fail Gold is an interesting subject that needs attention, didn't occur to me. Thanks!
    -Yes, is that better on the companion Hammer Flow Chart though?
    -Same
    -True again, another branch could be added but I haven't played BtS yet. Not sure what to do with it at this time.



    I agree with your opinions here, keep it simple, but add a bit more information.


    I was indeed thing of making some companion charts, good idea there.


    I know I didn't. I still make mistakes. It is a subtle difference between one coin and a stack of coins.


    Very true. I am looking for space for that. It was first meant to be a pure commerce to gold chart so that's why the emphasis lies there.


    Version 1.1:

     
  10. uat2d

    uat2d ಠ_ಠ

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    A chart like this definitely needs a place in the War Academy. ;)
     
  11. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

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    Excellent. Very good asset for newcomers

    Two small things to add: 1) As stated before, raw beakers can come from religious buildings w/ USankore, and raw gold from religious buildings w/ Spiral minaret. 2) Raw gold from Great Merchant trade mission.
     
  12. gorf37

    gorf37 Warlord

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    Perhaps all the hammer-derived beakers/gold/culture could go in a seperate, attached chart?

    ie: Hammers>>Hammer Multiplyers>>Beakers/Gold/Culture (or) >>Resource Multipliers>>Wonders(failgold)

    Great work in any case.
     
  13. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    That would be fine with me if it ends up there. Putting it together has cleared up a lot for me and if it can be helpful for others, all the better.


    Thank you very much, for the compliment and the tips. The new version that I am posting below already has both of those points integrated, let me know if it is unclear or incorrect. Great minds . . .

    Yes, I do think that it would be best to do a second chart for hammers and let it flow into this one in the appropriate place. If it is simple enough It could be added to the bottom one this one, but I would probably have to make it larger and I did want to keep it to a 1080 full HD format. I will look into it. Thanks for your appreciation and for adding your thoughts.


    Version 1.2:



    This version adds the points made above and has some graphic improvements. I also added factors that influence the formation of base culture such as GLH, harbors, GA, Financial trait and the like. Is that part clear? As far as I can see, and please point it out if you disagree, it is complete now. Only the hammer issue and possibly BtS additions are not taken care of and they are secondary to what I wanted to document here. I do want to address hammers to gold through hammer mods though.
     
  14. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    After a couple attempts to make a hammer flow chart, which actually will happen but not in relation to commerce, I decided that it was going to be clearer if I just added a small bit of hammer production and city wealth/culture/research building to the Commerce chart. This is an initial look at what I came up with:



    As I understand it, chopping, like whipping, cannot be turned into beakers / food / culture so I left it off as a source of hammers. It will be present in the hammer chart of course. Please let me know if youy have any comments, suggestions or questions, your input has helped me refine and improve the chart and is greatly appreciated.

    I see one mistake already, the "Raw Beakers" and "Raw Culture" need a "1" now, or "Gold 2" needs to lose the "2".
     
  15. pixiejmcc

    pixiejmcc Prince

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    As already mentioned this should find its way to strategy and tips if not the war academy. Excellent work!
     
  16. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Well thank you, mighty kind of you. I do think that there are enough players here who could benefit from having this information available but don't presume to know what is best as far as distribution goes. I didn't discover this kind of explanation--graphic or otherwise--elsewhere but maybe it is already out there somewhere.

    I could post it in Strategy but that seems a bit much to have two threads for it. I originally chose to create the thread in General Discussions because it doesn't seem like a strategy or a tip. Perhaps I as being too literal and not considering the spirit of the forum.

    As far as the War Academy goes, I have no idea how that works. I am assuming that a Mod would need to do that, so it is up to them. If someone who can do that wants to place it there then they should do so. I certainly appreciate the charts, spreadsheets, and guides I have found here and welcome the chance to make a contribution to the accumulated body of knowledge.
     
  17. Knightly_

    Knightly_ Warlord

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    Hey Mec,
    i think the visualization of how commerce is transformed into beakers and stuff is good for newcomers (or even players familiar with the game) but i find the picture is confusing in several aspects:

    -In the "slider" section the culture is 97 per turn although the slider is set to 0%, so one may ask where those 97 do come from. I assume you copied that part from this particular info page (what is it F2 or so?). Actually if that really shows only the commerce split up (and does not include buildings already) i have no clue how there can be any culture.
    -In the "beakers modifier" section you can see the culture each buildings yields but the viewer expects something like a percentage value that reflects the modifier. I know the picture shows how it is presented in the city screen but the numbers (for example Library +25%) would be more informative here. Same is true for culture and gold modifiers.
    -The arrow in the very bottom right should as well point to culture and beakers.

    Some other things i thought about:
    -I would add one bottom line in each "raw" section with something like "=total unmodified city beakers/culture/gold" and point from that line to the top line of the "modifier" section via arrow so the process becomes more clear.
    -A general idea is to emphasize the fact that the modifiers are per city and in the end the outputs of each city are added to give the global beakers/culture/gold which you can see on the main screen. However this is probably too much more to add to this graph as it requires additional graphics on the very left/right.

    Anyway this is very good work until now and the visual appearance is excellent.

    Knightly_
     
  18. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

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    It's great, but the writing is a little small and hard to read. Is there a larger version to download? Or is my browser shrinking the picture for some reason?
     
  19. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Knightly_, thanks for your analysis and suggestions, they are much appreciated. You made some points that really made me think and consider just what it is that I did and what I wanted to achieve, and that is always good. You clearly put some thought into it and invested some time in writing it up as well.

    I'll start with a piece of background information. The basis for the graphics is that they are taken from the city screen. There are two reasons for doing so. The first is that the city screen provides the clearest view of the information, it is broken down nicely and has a good clear background. The second reason is that the city screen is where the buttons and levers for controlling the empire are. With the notable exception of the slider, all choices that depend on the flow of commerce are made in the cities. What buildings or wonders should be built, specialists run, Great People settled and so on. It is when I am looking at my city screen that questions of commerce arise so it made sense to me to use that as the base for the flow chart.

    Now let me address your suggestions specifically.

    -Your point about the slider is a good one, I agree completely. I copied the slider from the city screen (note the maintenance cost, this was London laden with wonders) instead of the main screen because it is graphically clearer and shows the amount of wealth generated with is not shown in the same way in the main screen. I consider having the wealth present an absolute priority as the subsequent division post-slider into three parts follows from that. This does create the confusion you pointed out, 0% culture yet 97 culture produced. Globally that is impossible, yet that image represents the global slider. If it was anything but zero this would hardly be noticeable, but it is zero and so it does attract attention. I originally intended the slider graphic to just represent the fact that the slider divides the commerce up, not thinking that the specific percentages shown would be important, now I see that the numbers are important. By taking the numbers from the slider and repeating them in the Raw B|C|G it intensifies the link and the flow being demonstrated. What I can do to resolve the confusion of 0% is simply use an image of a slider that isn't at zero. It might still be "fake" in the sense that it won't be taken from the main screen, where solely global totals are displayed, but it should be significantly less confusing to someone trying to puzzle their way through the details because it won't attract attention. That is an improvement I can implement.

    -As far as percentage increases that each modifier contribute, such as a library, I see your point about that being useful information. However, something appeals to me about keeping the simple city screen image as it is. If I wanted to show the concrete information for each element I would also need to list the specifics for the specialists and settled Great People and everything, which clearly isn't possible due to space restrictions. Is it then logical to do it for the buildings just because there is a bit of space there? What I really want to show is the main flow of commerce to beakers/culture/gold and all the parts that play a role in that. I think trying to pin a specific number on each modifier may be taking it a step too far. I could remove the culture generated by Beaker Modifiers however. What do you guys think, is that clearer?

    -What you say about the arrow on the right is certainly true, it needs to point to the beaker and the music note as well as the coins. This is something I struggled with while putting the chart together but I never found an acceptable solution. I considered running it up the full height of the page on the right with branches to the left for each of the three possible destinations. That, however, negates the effect of having the three categories as final stopping points. Anything to the right of them kills the clarity of the flow. I could continue the arrow up from the gold coins to the music note to the beaker, but that inadvertently joins the three unique outputs together which certainly isn't desirable as I want to emphasize them as three separate entities. My thinking is was that it should be implied that the arrow points to the other two elements even though it doesn't do so directly. It should be read as pointing at the column of three elements and not just at the wealth. I tested adding a faint background blob that would group the three elements together and have the arrow point to that blob and thus all three quantities in one go. Again, that ruins the flow from one source, commerce, to three separate destinations. I agree with your point here but I just don't have an perfect solution for it. Perhaps the best answer is to shorten the arrow so that it doesn't seem to be directly linked to only the coins, that would give more visual presence to the three elements anyway. I think I'll give that a try. Tell me what you think when you see it.

    -Totaling up the beakers/culture/gold as you suggest sounds logical. I simply don't see the space for it at the moment, however. An arrow from the bottom of the Raw to the top of the Modifiers is also problematic in a pure graphic sense. I think that keeping the big picture clear, flow from left to right, takes precedence. The only diagonal or bump in flow occurs at the slider which I judge to be very logical. If this were to be a fully worked-out case study then I would want to finish the equation implied by the "+" signs but I believe it is valuable to keep it a bit more abstract as a chart. Perhaps more importantly I think it is a luxury that I can't afford given the limited pixels.

    -The emphasis on a group of cities working independently but producing a global total is also intriguing. The chart as it is skirts around that issue, what is city what is empire. After spending some time thinking about how I could mark the difference between City and Empire I have to conclude that I am unable to come up with an improvement to the current chart. I agree that it is impossible to fit that in here, but as a separate illustration it could be of value. Perhaps this should be done as well. I will think about it a bit more to see if it would provide any significant insights into the game and how it could be done.

    I enjoyed your post as it helped me clarify the purpose and means utilized in the flow chart. I am interested to hear your thoughts on my response and how others view your points. This is the kind of feedback that improves the quality of the final product, thanks for contributing.



    Manfred, the image is full HD (1920x1080) so it could very well be that your browser is shrinking it down to fit it in. Try downloading it and viewing it in an image viewer.


    Self, add the culture given by having religion present in a city.
     
  20. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

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    tl;dr Bureaucracy.

    Also ctrl+scroll up on your mouse.
     

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