Community Call to Power Project

chrome-rome · Jul 17, 2012

@ Androrc the Orc: Thanks

!!! I have added some more for the new buildings and techs that I think are really nice.

@ thaishmafia: No apology needed

. Just glad that you are bringing your ideas to the table. I think the idea of different XP values is cool, but I'm worried about the AI using it properly. Each unit already has Flavors to tell the AI when to build it. IE, the Spearman has this entry:

Code:

<Row>
			<UnitType>UNIT_SPEARMAN</UnitType>
			<FlavorType>FLAVOR_OFFENSE</FlavorType>
			<Flavor>2</Flavor>
		</Row>
		<Row>
			<UnitType>UNIT_SPEARMAN</UnitType>
			<FlavorType>FLAVOR_DEFENSE</FlavorType>
			<Flavor>4</Flavor>
		</Row>

If you were to adjust the XP gained from combat, I would do it to match the Flavors. I do not know if the Flavors direct the AI on how to use the unit tactically (I doubt it), so it is really hard to know if the AI will recognize that they get bonuses for doing one action more. I think what I'll say is that I am interested in seeing it in action (it is a clever idea), but I'll withhold adding it to the mod until we can see how the AI handles it.

Horem, do you know why the Social Tech Tree is backwards at the end? I tried the obvious stuff (checked to make sure the techs were added to the proper eras), but that wasn't it.

Horem · Jul 17, 2012

And everyone else, I'll post a new version on Github tomorrow which takes care of these issues and a few others that have come up. Horem, this will in all liklyhood be the version we throw to the Workshop, so after you play for a bit (and make sure all of the main issues are fixed), please build the mod so we can be all "official."

Already done, just post me the files you have changed when u post them to Github and i'll add them in and rebuild.

Horem, do you know why the Social Tech Tree is backwards at the end? I tried the obvious stuff (checked to make sure the techs were added to the proper eras), but that wasn't it.

Um nope, I havnt got that far ina game yet to look at it tbh, so did not notice, but at a guess I'd say there is somthing wrong with the Lua file, ie somthing is backwards, I'll take a look in a bit.

Edit:

So booted CiV to have a look at tech trees. All seems fine to me, Ancient - Classical - Medieval - Renassiance - Industrial - Modern - Digital - Information, is how they go with me, all of them(And how they are listed in eras.xml). (I am using the Workshop version though, dunno if that makes a diff or what). Could either of ya see if anything is in the logs?

Did notice that once you go through the tech tree menu to a tree and click close, it closes whole thing, rather than taking you back to the tech menu like it used too.

thaishmafia · Jul 17, 2012

Im very sorry, I must have been very tired and playing way too long to notice you set up the Digital Era before Information Era for all the Tech Trees. I realized Im mistaken about the Social Tree Information Era being before the Digital Era. Apparently all the trees are set up correctly as Horem mentioned: Modern>Digital>Information. I think what threw me off and why it looked backwards to me is that there is only one Social technology in Digital Era (techs about 31,000 points) of Social Tree and Six Social Technologies in Information Era(techs worth about 103,000 points). Normally...Tech Trees start with lots of techs and then widdle there way down to one final tech...I guess you guys set it up different for Social Tree with alot of techs at the end. Also, there are no connector lines between the Digital and Information Eras of the Social Tree.

3335d · Jul 17, 2012

A few suggestions:

The proliferation of techs like "Great Monuments" which are not really true technologies should be reduced, by either combining them with associated sciences or technologies in the tech tree or, if they do not fit under one (e.g. Drama and Poetry) should belong to an entirely new "Cultural Developments and Policies Tree," encompassing all "cultural" techs and social policies, with cultural developments (new name for cultural techs) and social policies alike being unlocked through accumulation of Culture rather than Science.

There should also be a term for science produced by your empire being modified negatively by the number of cities the player possesses, as large, sprawling, and disconnected empires with small cities will in actuality produce little science and technology. The total science produced should be computed as follows:

Spoiler :

The tech tree should be unified into one user interface, as in the game, with the cultural developments tree a separate tab within the. Cultural developments should have reasonable pure technology prerequisites (e.g. Marxism should require Steam Power, as that ideology was driven by the events of the Industrial Revolution).

Also, the game is VERY computationally expensive with this mod and has nearly crashed on me more than one time, a situation which has not arisen with the base game. If there is a way to improve the speed of the mod, it would be very beneficial. (Yes, I do have a 2008 computer with a Core 2 Duo, but this far outperforms minimum CiV specifications.)

Importation of Food, Production, and Gold should be permitted from outside the city radius, but at a Gold cost proportional to the terrain type, whether there are roads or rivers on or adjacent to the tiles you want to import from, etc. There should also be a loss of Food and Production, which would be eliminated upon discovering the Refrigeration technology.

One final comment - the Beef Vat should take away one :c5production:

for every citizen in the city (it uses a lot of electricity) and should only generate five :c5food:

per Merchant specialist working in its specialist slots, as well as a base +40 :c5food:

. With the current Beef Vat the location of cities can be absolutely terrible and you can still build it into a flourishing center of culture. While this has happened with cities such as Las Vegas, it is a rare occurrence and should be reflected in-game.

Gilgamesch · Jul 17, 2012

@33356 I mostly not agree with your suggestions. I like the Great monuments, and i thinks its well lined, since the wonders there where early and also very accurate to history reality.
For your crashes, i use a well constructed pc from 2010, but i also got crashes, not only directed to CCTP,but for all mods, who expand the game. I can play the game in vanilla on huge maps with the highest settings, but when i start to play with mods i have to go lower. Maybe be your system cant handle the requirements for Civ mods.

chrome-rome · Jul 17, 2012

Hey guys I'm so sorry I'm late to respond; I slept in later than usual and had to rush directly to work when I woke up. I promised a version of CCTP today; I'm putting it up on Github now. What's changed?

Spoiler :

As for responses

Horem: I actually change files as I go, so I'm not sure what all has changed. Once I post I'll take a look at Github and see what has been recently modified. I do know that it is a lot.

thaishmafia: You and me both

. I didn't even look at the other Trees to see if that was just a Social thing. Oh well :lol:

3335d:

Spoiler :

I appreciate the input, but there are a few things that are a few reasons why things are set up like they are. The Great Monuments tech is definitely "filler," but it was necessary because all of those Wonders were previously on Masonry. As the tech tree can only display up to five units/buildings/wonders/actions/improvements, having nine things associated with one tech was not feasible. I think the only thing wrong with it is the tech name, but I couldn't think of anything fitting (Grand Scale Buildings??).

The same for the monopoly techs, although I do need to rework some of them; after viewing three games through an AI perspective, I found that they consistently forgo Raw Materials and Herding. My theory is that the AI somehow factors the techs that are available by researching a certain tech when factoring in its next research project. Both of these techs only lead to one other tech, which happens to also be a monopoly tech. I'll need to incorporate these into the tech tree more (this is another reason why the Military Training tech was added: to give Archery something to lead to).

I kind of like how you tied science to trade routes. Historically, it makes sense, but from a gameplay perspective, it is not completely feasible. The main problem is simply that the AI would not have *any* idea about how to use the new formula. Sure, it would still build roads to connect it's cities eventually, but it won't understand the additional importance of the trade routes. Civs that get "automatic" trade routes (Carthage, Iroquois, Inca, etc) would have huge advantages over other civs. And honestly, CCTP leans towards playing wide instead of tall, so it could conflict with some other game designs.

As for your game crashing, it is true that CCTP is a monster. The best advice I can tell you is to turn down your graphics and/or play in Strategic View. I am using a 2009 comp with a Quad, but my graphics card is integrated :eek:

. Sure, I can play with the normal settings, but only if I want to have ~20 frames. SV takes some getting use to, but I guarantee you will experience smoother gameplay.

The Tech Tree is too expansive to use just one page, and I have a reason for having the Tree split in different categories (give you a hint; it will be a function of the future Governments).

Importation of Food, Production, and Gold should be permitted from outside the city radius, but at a Gold cost proportional to the terrain type, whether there are roads or rivers on or adjacent to the tiles you want to import from, etc. There should also be a loss of Food and Production, which would be eliminated upon discovering the Refrigeration technology.

One final comment - the Beef Vat should take away one for every citizen in the city (it uses a lot of electricity) and should only generate five per Merchant specialist working in its specialist slots, as well as a base +40 . With the current Beef Vat the location of cities can be absolutely terrible and you can still build it into a flourishing center of culture. While this has happened with cities such as Las Vegas, it is a rare occurrence and should be reflected in-game.

This is the part of your post that I really like. D tried putting in a Slavery system back in PCTP. The idea was that Slave units would move to other cities and work much like weak Great Engineers in that they would hurry production. This was eventually scrapped because the AI went overboard with building them, and a proper balance could not be reached. What you have proposed with the food and production is nice, but I don't have the slightest idea on how to implement this. Would it be through a panel only menu like Espionage where you can shift around yields? That would probably be better than having buildable units, but again we run into the problem of the AI not using it (completely ignoring that I have very little ability to mod lua, which this will require). As a general rule, it is not possible to mod in new concepts and expect the AI to use them correctly. Even extremely well-coded projects like Spatz's only build upon the AI's tendency to do certain things, and then adds content based on those actions. Before we can affect how the AI thinks, we need access to the DLL.

I love the Beef Vat suggestion. While I generally don't like assigning negative yields (and therefore Flavors), I will in this case because the tradeoff is so huge. It's not in the version that was just uploaded, but it will be in the next one.

Sorry if I seem like I'm coming down hard on your suggestions; most of them are great, but aren't possible due to practicality/AI restrictions. When we get the DLL we might revisit some of these

ulsterbrit · Jul 18, 2012

Damn good work guys this looks incredible.
just 1 question tho Is this compatible with r.e.d. ethnic units. or does it have it added already? :goodjob:

As i couldnt emagin playing civ 5 without r.e.d

chrome-rome · Jul 18, 2012

R.E.D is a graphic mod right? I've never played with it, so I don't know. If so, it should work with CCTP, although the new units won't be affected. I do remember talk about R.E.D. in the past, so I'm inclined to say yes.

Horem · Jul 18, 2012

R.E.D should work fine, just load it after CCTP.

Dont worry Chrome, I just downloaded 3.15 and imported everything again

off to test it.

Edit:

You could add Fiberoptic(Social Tree) in the Digital Era after Social Networks. That would give you a link to Information Era. Or Fiberoptic Media?

Edit 2:

Republic Image is to small, as in it does not fit its box correctly, can see the policy trees at the bottom.

Edit 3:

Version 3.15 plays fine rebuilt with modbuddy, 100 turns auto play and all seems okay. Will give it a proper test after my shower, in meanwhile uploading to my skydrive. Chrome you have access to file, will take a bit to upload, 15m or so.

thaishmafia · Jul 18, 2012

Good Idea Horem about adding a Technology like Fiberoptics after Social Networking...it will help lead/show people there are more social Technologies in the Information Era and fill some of the gap between those two eras. Just did a playthrough too...everythings looks good and works great. Gotta love Civ 5 G&K Ai...enemy Prophet spam sneaking into your country and converting all your cities including capital/holy city so easily to their own religon hahaha

Goodjob you guys on a fantastic mod...Im sure people will love it when it goes live to the Steam Workshop.

3335d · Jul 18, 2012

One final grievance; I was playing as Russia and my Science had a negative modifier of 43.4%! There is no reason for this to happen. I was playing with the Republic government. This is a bug that definitely needs to be fixed, because it's 1722 AD in my game, I'm still in the medieval era, triremes and galeasses form the backbone of my navy, and I haven't got a single wonder (on difficulty level Warlord). Where could this bug be?

As for the tile yield importation idea, perhaps we could cheat and do an infinite city radius, with a gold, production, and food charge for importation beyond 3 tiles. We could call it whatever we want, but for the AI nothing will change, really. This kills two birds with one stone.

chrome-rome · Jul 19, 2012

Will do Horem. Also, I found a mistake in the solution you built; you forgot yourself in the Special Thanks section. Don't worry, I fixed it.

And it's now up on the Workshop, so if everyone could rate it, I think it would help with visibility.

3335d, the negative modifier should only be -42.5% in Republic. There is a constant -50% that is applied from the Palace. This is because the game has a limit on how many beakers a tech can require. Previously, the techs in the super late game had gone over that limit, so D decided to cut all tech cost in half, which leads to the -50% modifier. For the importation, I understand what you're getting at, but I think this is something that would work best as a new mechanic (with a menu). Yes, it is probably possible to do the infinite radius via Lua coding, but I think it has much more potential as a full fledged mechanic (available at Wheel).

I have actually thought about this a lot, and here's somethings I've brainstormed:

Available at Wheel. Yields are imported from one city to another. A certain percentage is lost (random number from X% through X+Y%)
At Railroads, Percentage lost drops by X amount
At Flight, 90%-100% of yield transferred arrive
New buildings that increase percentage of yields successfully transferred (max of 100%)

**EDIT**
You can't even see the thank yous on the Workshop

. Well, everyone here know how much you and Fires have contributed. And that's what matters

Horem · Jul 19, 2012

Will do Horem. Also, I found a mistake in the solution you built; you forgot yourself in the Special Thanks section. Don't worry, I fixed it.

LOL, it doesnt feel right adding yourself to special Thanks

One final grievance; I was playing as Russia and my Science had a negative modifier of 43.4%! There is no reason for this to happen. I was playing with the Republic government. This is a bug that definitely needs to be fixed, because it's 1722 AD in my game, I'm still in the medieval era, triremes and galeasses form the backbone of my navy, and I haven't got a single wonder (on difficulty level Warlord). Where could this bug be?

You need to adjust your tactics for CCTP, it has by far greater AI than vanilla. Playing on anything under Prince difficulty is pretty much the same as playign on Prince

, due to adjustments to the AI/Defines to limit the negative and positive bonus's the AI gets, they still get some just not as much. Plus the vanilla AI is set to settler, where CCTP AI is set to Prince as its Base difficulty. You need to plan ahead with CCTP, decide what wonders you want before, and beeline them ASAP since the AI now greatly favor's Wonders they will build them left and right. Also planning your early Cities for production will greatly increase you chances.

Horem · Jul 19, 2012

Meh dupe post.

3335d · Jul 19, 2012

How would I implement an entirely new mechanic? If I changed the table definitions, it's not like the source code would even care about it. Some people seem to have pulled it off though. All I need for now to make a rudimentary mod is to expand the city radius and put a building in each city by default to change the yields on each tile accordingly....

3335d · Jul 19, 2012

Horem said:
LOL, it doesnt feel right adding yourself to special Thanks

You need to adjust your tactics for CCTP, it has by far greater AI than vanilla. Playing on anything under Prince difficulty is pretty much the same as playign on Prince , due to adjustments to the AI/Defines to limit the negative and positive bonus's the AI gets, they still get some just not as much. Plus the vanilla AI is set to settler, where CCTP AI is set to Prince as its Base difficulty. You need to plan ahead with CCTP, decide what wonders you want before, and beeline them ASAP since the AI now greatly favor's Wonders they will build them left and right. Also planning your early Cities for production will greatly increase you chances.

I've played vanilla Prince before, and it isn't that hard. This seems like beyond Deity. Anyway, thanks for the advice. But I had one more question - is there a way to implement the tile yield importation mod that I mentioned? It seems that I would have to modify table definitions in XML, which would be utterly pointless.

isnorden · Jul 19, 2012

chrome-rome: The mod causes my game to crash just before it would have finished installing. Here are the error messages I received--

From database.log:

Spoiler :

From net_message_debug.log:

Spoiler :

From stopwatch.log:

Spoiler :

From xml.log:

Spoiler :

From xml-perf.log:

Spoiler :

If a hardware problem is causing these installation crashes. please let me know so I can tell fhe technician who'll be upgrading my PC tomorrow. Otherwise. plase let me know what I've done to cause the problem. Thank you so much!

Horem · Jul 19, 2012

@isnorden - Hi & welcome to the forum

I take it you managed to download CCTP when you launch CiV after subscribing? If so could you please check your mods directory and see if it is there. If it is(CIV5MOD file), try opening it with WinRar/WinZip or anyother similar tool. If it opens without any errors(It could be downloading corrupt) extract it too a folder(Commuinty Call to Power (v1)) in your mods directory(either create one or tell Winrar too). After that see if you can play.

There is a alternative download on the OP. You can try downloading that and extracting it too your mods directory if you are still experiencing problems.

I've played vanilla Prince before, and it isn't that hard. This seems like beyond Deity. Anyway, thanks for the advice

I get that, even on prince vanilla the base AI is still set to settler(as it is for all difficulties), its bonus's then get applied for whatever difficulty you choose, CCTP's base AI is Prince so you can assume whatever difficulty you chose with CCTP to be 2 lvls higher than your used too. So warlord would be equal to vanilla king.

thadian · Jul 19, 2012

Good work on this mod.

Horem · Jul 19, 2012

Importation of Food, Production, and Gold should be permitted from outside the city radius, but at a Gold cost proportional to the terrain type, whether there are roads or rivers on or adjacent to the tiles you want to import from, etc. There should also be a loss of Food and Production, which would be eliminated upon discovering the Refrigeration technology.

I cant see any obvious reason why you couldnt, WHoward has done something similar using a unit, Prospectors.

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