Community Feature: Worker Improvements

[Jaybe]

While you're at it Greg, get the Community article edited to include everything you've told us about it. Then do it again with all the other Community articles.

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Have the podcasts been suspended?? It's been awhile
... so one will probably appear tomorrow!

 

[Souron]

So when do farms need access to rivers now?

 

[bite]

So when do farms need access to rivers now?

so far only to build farms on hills

 

[stealth_nsk]

So when do farms need access to rivers now?

There's additional bonus from Civil Service.

 

[Mercade]

1) Trading posts do not "grow". They remain the same from the moment they are built, to the moment that I pillage them!

Yes and no. They may not grow, 2K Greg did say that their yield will increase when you go down the tech tree.

P.S. Posting in this forum will cause dual personality in me

Why?

It remains strange to me that an attacker doesn't benefit from the defensive bonus of a fort while in enemy land. Once you've captured the fort, why shouldn't you be able to hide behind its walls if the besieged party tries to get it back?

PS, Greg, your article on Civ5.com says it was written 5 August, not 13.

 

[Tomice]

All three of those are buildings now, and you might be interested to know that windmills and waterwheels both have requirements about the terrain around the city; something that I believe is new in Civ V. Windmills can't be built in a city build on a hill, for example, and waterwheels can only be built in cities adjacent to a river. I really like this because it means there is more to consider when placing a city than the raw yield of surrounding tiles.

Wow, thanks for answering all my questions!

Just one thing: Does this mean that a waterwheel or workshop give absolute boni to production? Similar to what the Levee did in civ4 (+1 prod on tiles next to a river), just earlier? And maybe a flat 5 production for workshop?

Or are the majority of those buildings relative boosts (+25% prod)?

I'm asking this because it seems, from the increased possibilities to farm, that you wanted to make it easier to build cities in suboptimal spots, so I assume you also thought about the issue that 1-tile islands had no regular production without slavery (or needed ages to build a smithy to employ 1 engineer and have 3 prod overall).



On another topic:
Windmills/Wind Energy only in flat terrain is perfectly logic IMO. While a lone hill in the middle of endless plains may indeed be the best available spot for a wind engine, they are very rare here in the alpine region, and get increasingly more common in flatter northern Austria, and especially up north in the flatland of Northern Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Three things I absolutely ADORE.

1) Trading posts do not "grow". They remain the same from the moment they are built, to the moment that I pillage them!

Actually, this is one thing I *don't* like! I had an issue with Cottage Spam in Civ4 (though I think it was solvable by making Cottages cost 1 food-the same as Work Shops did), but I did like the feeling of having to *invest* in an improvement in order to get its full benefit. I also liked how Villages & Towns made the Civ4 map seem more....real, due to the presence of Urban Sprawl! This is one thing I *definitely* hope can be modded in!

Aussie.

 

[Lyoncet]

I agree. While cottage spam was way overpowered in my opinion, I liked a few aspects of it. Along with those you mentioned, I really enjoyed the "free enterprise" feel they brought, or rather that the more progressive civics brought to them by bolstering their output or growth rate. Made for sort of like a laissez-faire economics feel to them.

Still, it's likely that you'll still have the investment feel, if not from tech (which you'll always get eventually unless you win or die) from social policies. Not as dynamic, but not as abusable either.

 

[gazius]

Are the road costs per tile? I'm either posting this way too late and missed the answer, or this is still a very important question.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Cottages are how you made commerce in civ 4. That isn't abuse, that's just how it works. That's like saying that farms were abusive in how much food they give, or mines in how much production. We had one main improvement for each type, and then some hybrids.

I really liked the slow growth of cottages in civ 4, for many of the reasons listed here. It was a great way to 'feel' the general infrastructure of an area growing. And when they hit Town level, and your women folk started working them, giving you an additional hammer, it was very cool feeling. This isn't just a single 'city' plot, but rather a big fat cross representing the city.

Ah well.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Are the road costs per tile? I'm either posting this way too late and missed the answer, or this is still a very important question.

Yes, per tile. 1 for simple road, 3 (1+2) for railroad.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Cottages are how you made commerce in civ 4. That isn't abuse, that's just how it works.

The abuse is lack of improvement choices due to cottages. Civ 5 is going to address that. It tries to treat all improvements in the same way, so all of them will gain bonuses with the research.

 

[Mercade]

Yes, per tile. 1 for simple road, 3 (1+2) for railroad.

Actually, 2K Greg posted that railroads cost 2 gpt including the costs and benefit of the road, not 3.

Roads and railroads are the only improvements that cost per turn.

Railroads replace roads, and provide both benefits, so the total cost is 2, not 3.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Actually, 2K Greg posted that railroads cost 2 gpt including the costs and benefit of the road, not 3.

Oops, misread. Yes, that's better, thanks!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

The abuse is lack of improvement choices due to cottages. Civ 5 is going to address that. It tries to treat all improvements in the same way, so all of them will gain bonuses with the research.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. Having played Civ4 hundreds of times, I never felt constrained in what I could build. I usually only built cottages in tiles where no other improvement made sense (like plains away from rivers). If a tile gave 2 food, then I'd just as sooner build a Workshop as a Cottage. The reality, though, is that trading posts are just as much as an exploit as cottages were-but without the benefits of being able to grow them into Towns like you could in Civ4.

Aussie.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. Having played Civ4 hundreds of times, I never felt constrained in what I could build. I usually only built cottages in tiles where no other improvement made sense (like plains away from rivers). If a tile gave 2 food, then I'd just as sooner build a Workshop as a Cottage. The reality, though, is that trading posts are just as much as an exploit as cottages were-but without the benefits of being able to grow them into Towns like you could in Civ4.

The problem with cottages is what once they grow, they provide really huge bonus, while other improvements don't grow that much. That made the cottages the most natural choice after feeding basic city needs in food and production.

Anyway, I suggest that depends on personal opinions. I think we could gather some opinions and take a poll here. Results could be surprising to all

 

[Tomice]

Cottages may have been-powerful to people who really knew how to make them grow very fast. To the average player the short-term benefits of using other improvements might have been more appealing.

I you used advanced knowledge, like that cottages of a financial leader next to a river gave 3 commerce from the very beginning, they were awesome. You also had to micromage a bit (and know they only grow when actually worked). If you built a lighthouse, the auto-assignment also often preferred coast tiles over cottages to be worked.

 

[Bad Brett]

I would say the opposite, that cottage spam is a beginner's mistake. Representation + Mercantilism is a very powerful combination that it possible to get relatively early.

Also, the way Civ 4 works, makes it much more valuable to have direct science than commerce. Let's say you have set the slider so that a town produces 3 and 1 . You now build a libery, which increases the output with 25%. Right now the library won't affect the total science output, since 1/4 of 3 is less than 1, and Civ 4 only uses integers. But if you set the slider so that the town produces 4 and 0 , the library will increase the science output to 5.

By the way, not being able to build windmills on hills is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[The_J]

Another thing, about which nothing has been said:
It has been mentioned, that roads decrease the tile yield. Is this true?

 

[Tomice]

By the way, not being able to build windmills on hills is absolutely ridiculous.

How so? I posted a confirmation that it's perfectly logic - the flatter the land, the more common wind engines are in Germany - see the graphic from Wikipedia I posted.

In historic villages in alpine Austria I have seen several watermills, but never any windmill. In flat Northern Europe they are extremely common, both historic and modern versions.

Wind engines could also be a lategame improvement for coastal tiles from a realism perspective.